Major article in NYT

[Beaver_Breeze]

Whenever I see someone suggest that refraining from racing 2YOs would reduce the incidence of breakdowns, I wonder what would happen if they spent some time examining charts from “back in the day.” 2YOs were sometimes raced as early as January, and March wasn’t unusual at all-- and they went on to race for many years and substantially more starts than they do in the current day & age. Some didn’t start until later in the year, and some didn’t start until they turned three. One would presume there were reasons their trainers handled them the way they did, and that they (quite successfully) let the horses tell them what they were capable of doing.

Prohibit racing until age four? Good heavens. I am of the mind that we might be babying horses TOO much, not the opposite! There are a myriad of reasons why horses don’t make the number of starts they used to and why horses break down, but ‘racing too early’ almost certainly isn’t one of them.

[Flashy_Gray_VA]

Somebody, possibly R.S. Surtees, once said that the only people who should be making a living with horses are those who love and respect them as living beings.

With all due respect, I find this to be an Orwellian statement, if not a downright scary one.

Who, exactly, gets to determine what “loving and respecting them as living beings” means?

The H.U.S.? PETA?

[SwampYankee]

For the record, I am not a member of any “animal rights” groups whatsoever. Never have been. I do not agree with their philosophies. I believe in the free market and I eat all kinds of meat with gusto. I recently fought the wrath of ignorants to KEEP the carriage horses in New York City. As for the quote above:

“Loving and respecting” horses in my book means that I don’t willingly, knowingly, and intentionally subject them to uses and management practices that demonstrably result in catastrophic injury or illness solely for my own financial gain. Nor do I make apologies for others doing so. Why is it we drug-test Olympic athletes? Why are baseball players up before Congressional committees investigating doping? Why are airline pilots required to be drug-free? Why should racing be different?

Bringing this thread back around to the article that started it, the rate of breakdowns on the tracks today is unprecedented and unacceptable. A number of known factors are causing it. It’s never going to be a perfect world and I’m not advocating here that any subset of people be barred from horse ownership. What I AM advocating is that horsemen of conscience stop making excuses for the unfortunate practices of a relative few that are ruining this once-great sport.

If things go on like they are, what, exactly, are you going to do once the general public will no longer attend the races, or even watch them on TV, for fear of seeing a stomach-turning mess like Eight Belles? Tracks all over the country are losing money now. The stopwatch is indeed ticking. I’d like to hear some good people’s constructive solutions to the problem.

Swamp Yankee

[Acertainsmile]

[QUOTE=Angelico;6261905]
Not racing anything under four? No. No way. A four year old on the track is considered an old pro. Most farms do not back horses before they are two, and gently and wisely at that. Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of idiots out there, but generally we do know what we are doing with a young horse.

These are not warmbloods, they mature FAST. Also, the two year old races don’t begin in force until the fall.

Like I said before, feel free to do away with 2 year olds in training sales, those are ridiculous and very few horsemen like them.

Why all the sudden heat about injections and NSAIDS? I’m not a huge NSAID fan myself, but injections? Are you kidding me? That is considered regular maintenance in many barns from many disciplines. These issues are not unique to racing, just more publicized.

Share the same drug regulations as the FEI? Oh heck no… I for one will not stand for an association that knows little to nothing of the ins and outs of racing telling us that we have to follow the same rules as show jumpers, for a sport so different. As extensively as racehorses are tested, drugs are not a terrible issue, it’s just the never ending debate about what the “right drugs” and “right” amounts there should be.

Kudos for running a retirement farm! When I win the lottery, that is my dream.[/QUOTE]

Not to be offensive, but some of your posts leave me scratching my head and wondering where you are located…In my world most young horses are broke for the track as long yearlings, and are galloping 6 days a week as early 2 yr olds. Two year old races start in the spring.

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=SwampYankee;6263939]
Bringing this thread back around to the article that started it, the rate of breakdowns on the tracks today is unprecedented and unacceptable. A number of known factors are causing it. It’s never going to be a perfect world and I’m not advocating here that any subset of people be barred from horse ownership. What I AM advocating is that horsemen of conscience stop making excuses for the unfortunate practices of a relative few that are ruining this once-great sport.[/QUOTE]

Except 1. No, they’re not unprecendented compared to early racing, where anything literally went as far as drugs are concerned and 2. the article is lumping horses with quarter grabs and vanned off for bleeding with horses who snap an ankle. I’ve got one in the barn right now who counts in their statistics and he never missed a day of training and retired sound. His only problem is he’s lazy.

What has the potential to ‘ruin’ the sport are the same uninformed urbanites who think carriage horses have ‘tumors’ on their legs wailing and moaning because a few horses break a leg and others end up on dinner plates (because the same people who lecture the racing owners refuse to buy the horses any more because they aren’t being bred to be fat, slow, show animals first, profitable racers second, and nursed along like developmentally-delayed warmbloods because heaven forbid a horse who’s had an intense athletic career not have the x-rays of an unbroken two-year-old.)

No one particularly LIKES watching horses get hurt. But horses used for intense sports are going to die in some numbers, whether they break an ankle at Aqueduct or break their back at Badminton or just randomly drop dead in a show ring. Even if everyone stopped using horses for anything and just put them in the field to look at the pwetty ponies, some of them are going to break legs in holes and impale themselves on fenceposts because that’s just how it goes with horses.

[SwampYankee]

That’s not what I’m advocating. As an eventer and foxhunter I’ve had plenty of occasons to take risks and put pressure on horses. I’ve jumped more than a few things in my time that by many people’s standards would make me certifiable. I was blessed with a horse who wanted to do it. It was up to me to condition him to minimize the risk and I was prepared to take full responsibility had it turned out otherwise.

Participating in this thread has been most enlightening. I’ve read enough on this very board to know that the NYT hardly needed to inflate or sensationalize “what goes on.” The difference between TB’s vs. QH’s is splitting hairs; it should not be happening this often anywhere to any horses.

Hey, I’m from another discipline; educate me. What should the racing industry be doing to minimize breakdowns? I’m sure you don’t want YOUR horses to break down. How do you manage that? Educate all of us, including the public. Let’s hear some real opinions, not denial, name-calling, or ad-hominem dismissal.

I am neither an urbanite, PETA or “Orwellian.” My stomach is strong enough to have held the rope for the vet on more than a dozen occasions for “final honors.” I’d just like to be able to watch the Derby without needing a stiff drink afterward.

[lifesabreeze]

[QUOTE=SwampYankee;6264945]
That’s not what I’m advocating. As an eventer and foxhunter I’ve had plenty of occasons to take risks and put pressure on horses. I’ve jumped more than a few things in my time that by many people’s standards would make me certifiable. I was blessed with a horse who wanted to do it. It was up to me to condition him to minimize the risk and I was prepared to take full responsibility had it turned out otherwise.

Participating in this thread has been most enlightening. I’ve read enough on this very board to know that the NYT hardly needed to inflate or sensationalize “what goes on.” The difference between TB’s vs. QH’s is splitting hairs; it should not be happening this often anywhere to any horses.

Hey, I’m from another discipline; educate me. What should the racing industry be doing to minimize breakdowns? I’m sure you don’t want YOUR horses to break down. How do you manage that? Educate all of us, including the public. Let’s hear some real opinions, not denial, name-calling, or ad-hominem dismissal.

I am neither an urbanite, PETA or “Orwellian.” My stomach is strong enough to have held the rope for the vet on more than a dozen occasions for “final honors.” I’d just like to be able to watch the Derby without needing a stiff drink afterward.[/QUOTE]

Have you even bothered to read any of the links provided in this long thread or searched this subject on this BB? I know I have provided many links that would assist in your education. Perhaps you would like to link to them with any specific clarifications you need? Or are you just quacking?

try this one for starters:
http://www.nyra.com/aqueduct/stories/Apr122012.shtml

more links on this thread:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349356

Do you really need me to re-link all that I have already placed in this thread?

[SwampYankee]

Frankly, I’m just really surprised at the level of snottiness I’ve encountered here. The impression gained has not been good. I’ve done extensive reading, and have had long conversations with vets, dealers and trainers. Mostly because I wanted to understand why it’s very, very hard to find the kind of OTTB we used to ride and show in the old days. A boarder of mine has spent the last 5 years trying to get a good one, resulting in a string of duds with bizarre problems.

I’m bowing out now, because being served insults is boring.

[lifesabreeze]

[QUOTE=SwampYankee;6265021]
Frankly, I’m just really surprised at the level of snottiness I’ve encountered here. The impression gained has not been good. I’ve done extensive reading, and have had long conversations with vets, dealers and trainers. Mostly because I wanted to understand why it’s very, very hard to find the kind of OTTB we used to ride and show in the old days. A boarder of mine has spent the last 5 years trying to get a good one, resulting in a string of duds with bizarre problems.

I’m bowing out now, because being served insults is boring.[/QUOTE]

It corresponds to your lack of any attempt to read anything anyone has already stated or linked to on this thread alone. If you are going to comment on a subject that has many links and explanations/opinions,at least have the courtesy to read them first.

[SwampYankee]

I am reading the links, for which I am grateful, and will continue to read more. Thank you for that input.

However, I refuse delivery of hyper-defensive hostility. Plenty of people on this thread have been engaging in polite, reasoned, instructive conversation.

Given racing’s present PR issues–you might find it more productive not to alienate anyone else.

Enjoy the Derby.

[RussianBlue]

Another NYT article from a couple days ago… a young filly with Finger Lakes connections barely escaping slaughter…

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/02/a-4-year-old-filly-is-safe-and-sound/

[BansheeBreeze]

Isn’t $500+ pretty high for a kill buyer to pay? Not starting debate, I just didn’t think they paid that much

[caffeinated]

@BansheeBreeze;6359162

Isn’t $500+ pretty high for a kill buyer to pay? Not starting debate, I just didn’t think they paid that much

I think most kill buyers are not just kill buyers - they will also buy horses under a certain amount if they think they can turn a profit on them.

That said, they may occasionally buy a few at higher prices to fill out a load - if they’ve bought a whole bunch of very cheap horses and have a contract stating they need to deliver a certain number of horses, they might pay more to get the last few on the trailer as what they get paid in the end will still net them a profit overall.

[M.K.Smith]

http://whyy.org/cms/radiotimes/ You can listen to it at the link. Interview (poorly done- IMO)… I usually like Marty Moss-Coane… some interesting points were made… I’m too tired to discuss if further… if you’re interested have a listen.

All eyes are on Elmont, New York this Saturday for the running of the Belmont Stakes where the three-year old thoroughbred I’ll Have Another is poised to win the coveted Triple Crown. If he pulls it off, he’ll become the 12th Triple Crown winner in history and the first horse in 34 years to win the honor. Last week, the horse’s trainer Doug O’Neill was given a 45-day suspension and $15,000 fine by the California Horse Racing Board after they found that in 2010 he had raced a horse with elevated carbon dioxide levels, a sign of illegal performance enhancing drug administration. O’ Neill has had a history of similar penalties in the past. In recent years, the horse racing industry has been under pressure to reform its practices regarding the doping of horses by implementing more serious penalties. Joining us to talk about the Belmont Stakes, I’ll Have Another and the abuses within the horseracing industry are Daily news sportswriter DICK JERARDI and New York Times investigative reporter WALT BOGDANICH who co-authored a recent expose on the issue.

[baldfaceboyz]

Can anyone tell me about the Charlestown pileup ?

Couldn’t even bring myself to read the NYT article in it’s entirety, smacks of PETA like propoganda to me, but I was shocked to see the mention of 7 out of 8 horses going down in one race at Charlestown. Was this a footing or weather issue ? What in the world could cause so many to go down at once ? Anyone care to shed some light on this incident for me ? Hoping no horses or humans were seriously hurt.

[Pronzini]

@baldfaceboyz;6365626

Couldn’t even bring myself to read the NYT article in it’s entirety, smacks of PETA like propoganda to me, but I was shocked to see the mention of 7 out of 8 horses going down in one race at Charlestown. Was this a footing or weather issue ? What in the world could cause so many to go down at once ? Anyone care to shed some light on this incident for me ? Hoping no horses or humans were seriously hurt.

I think the front runner went down and others fell over him. Bad things can happen when the horse in front goes down especially early in the race when they are all bunched. A similar thing happened in the Decathlon S at Monmouth last month.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

[QUOTE=baldfaceboyz;6365626]
Couldn’t even bring myself to read the NYT article in it’s entirety, smacks of PETA like propoganda to me, but I was shocked to see the mention of 7 out of 8 horses going down in one race at Charlestown. Was this a footing or weather issue ? What in the world could cause so many to go down at once ? Anyone care to shed some light on this incident for me ? Hoping no horses or humans were seriously hurt.[/QUOTE]

It was a sloppy-sealed track and it was a 4.5f race, run on a bullring.

Sh!t does happen, but those three ingredients do increase your likelihood of said sh!t happening.