Major article in NYT

[danceronice]

Well, yeah, you can. So everyone who goes to the track to bet instead of stand there like a toddler watching the pwetty horsies is a ‘degenerate gambler?’ Really? Wow. Do you also assume everone who goes to Vegas and plays slot machines is a degenerate gambler? Been picketing your state lottery?

If I go to the track, I bet. That’s why they hold races and why at least some in the general public care about them, as opposed to horse shows, where unless it’s your spoiled-brat child loping around on your doped six-figure hunter while your trainer crosses his fingers and hopes that they don’t get pulled for a drug test so no one catches him stacking NSAIDs to get ol’ reliable around just one more course at age 16, no one’s watching and no one cares, so usually the trainers DO get away not only with drugs, joint injections, and electrocuting horses for the insurance money, they get to complain the drug rules are TOO strict. Far less embarrassing to be based on honest wagering than on trust-fund babies and trophy wives…

[Angelico]

[QUOTE=marginall;6222597]
breeders, jockeys, etc might not be degereate gamblers but your industry exists, depends on and thrives on degenerate gamblers. you can’t argue that.[/QUOTE]

Oh yes I can. When was the last time you were at the track? Half the crowd is retired trainers and riders grumbling to each other about their old injuries. The others are a mix of hobby gamblers, sightseers, and horse lovers. Very few “Luck” style gamblers, they are there, but they aren’t that bad. They are people too.

Gambling is like drinking, it’s awesome as long as you keep your head on your shoulders. Good thing, 'cause I do both from time to time.

[marginall]

danceronice: see, you gamble. you are why racing exists. and i bet, no pun intended, you don’t have money to burn and really shouldn’t be gambling.

angelico; you described the people in the stands, you didn’t present an argument against my point that racing exists (i.e. financed, supported).

you both furthered my point but keep trying!

[Laurierace]

What on earth is wrong with gambling and who are you to decide whether or not someone should be gambling? I agree that there are lots of things that need cleaning up in the sport of racing but I don’t think gambling is one of them.

[Angelico]

[QUOTE=marginall;6222886]
danceronice: see, you gamble. you are why racing exists. and i bet, no pun intended, you don’t have money to burn and really shouldn’t be gambling.

Dancer… You and I are bad people with a terribly sinful hobby! But thank heavens, marginall is going to help us get our lives back on track! Aren’t we lucky to have the all knowing marginall?

angelico; you described the people in the stands, you didn’t present an argument against my point that racing exists (i.e. financed, supported).

you both furthered my point but keep trying![/QUOTE]

Well, no actually, you just keep furthering the point that the sport is constantly hammered by people who don’t know the whole story…

[marginall]

The point Laurie, is that the industry is supported by gamblers. The average joe at Bellmont could care less about what happens to a horse after their career is over. If your customer base doesn’t care about horse welfare, why would owners? And I think it’s clear a lot of them don’t. It’s not an inherently ethical world.

There’s a lot wrong with gambling which is why it’s illegal in most places.

[Glimmerglass]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;6222895]
What on earth is wrong with gambling and who are you to decide whether or not someone should be gambling?[/QUOTE]

Replace “cable on the fritz” with “losing at the track” Or at least that’s the twisted logic I see coming against betting on horses. As for dictating what others should not being doing well I’ll chalk it up to the god complex.

[Rubyfree]

[QUOTE=marginall;6223032]
The point Laurie, is that the industry is supported by gamblers. The average joe at Bellmont could care less about what happens to a horse after their career is over. If your customer base doesn’t care about horse welfare, why would owners? And I think it’s clear a lot of them don’t. It’s not an inherently ethical world.

There’s a lot wrong with gambling which is why it’s illegal in most places.[/QUOTE]

Holy crap, really?

Most importantly here- I’ve NEVER met a handicapper at the track who didn’t care about the horses. If handicapping is their favored pass time, you bet your ass they care about the horses. Without the horses their pass time doesn’t exists.

Secondly- no, it isn’t illegal “most places”.

Why am I arguing with an agenda-laden, ill informed greenie? Danged if I know.

[Angelico]

@marginall;6223032

The point Laurie, is that the industry is supported by gamblers. The average joe at Bellmont could care less about what happens to a horse after their career is over.

So just because someone goes to the track to gamble for fun, and doesn’t know much about horses, they automatically are careless fools that can’t have any concern at all for the animals. Have you ever met these “degenerate gamblers” in person or are we just assuming this based off of what you see on TV?

If your customer base doesn’t care about horse welfare, why would owners? And I think it’s clear a lot of them don’t. It’s not an inherently ethical world.

[B]You have obviously never worked on the backside. The majority of owners are middle class small business owners and retired trainers still in touch with the sport. On the weekends, many owners bring their children and grandchildren out to see all the horses. That’s what my grandfather did with me, and look at where I ended up working.

Many of my barn’s owners have a field at home dedicated to retirees.[/B]

There’s a lot wrong with gambling which is why it’s illegal in most places.

Prove to us that “There is a lot wrong with gabling” is a fact, not an opinion based off second hand knowledge.

GG said it all… Must be a God complex…

[Laurierace]

What kind of jerk bases their animal care decisions on what the average Joe thinks? Seriously, that is the best arguement you can come up with?

[Glimmerglass]

[QUOTE=Glimmerglass;6221190]
Andrew Beyer has this counterpoint article with “Racing confronts another crisis”[/QUOTE]

To which - for what it’s worth and not much IMHO - [url=“http://www.paulickreport.com/news/people/times-responds-to-beyer-s-concerns-over-horse-racing-piece/”]Matt Purdy, Investigations Editor,
The New York Times retorted a reply (not in their paper in a letter) in this link.

All you need to do is read this summation:

Even so, it is hardly accurate to say – as your column does – that quarter horse racing is an entirely different sport.

It is. The AQHA is no Jockey Club. I’m a QH owner and member. The two are not alike. The racing, breeding, and regulating of both and more of each respective entity and breed is not the same.

[lifesabreeze]

[QUOTE=Glimmerglass;6225373]
To which - for what it’s worth and not much IMHO - [url=“http://www.paulickreport.com/news/people/times-responds-to-beyer-s-concerns-over-horse-racing-piece/”]Matt Purdy, Investigations Editor,
The New York Times retorted a reply (not in their paper in a letter) in this link.

All you need to do is read this summation:

It is. The AQHA is no Jockey Club. I’m a QH owner and member. The two are not alike. The racing, breeding, and regulating of both and more of each respective entity and breed is not the same.[/QUOTE]

His letter proves how little research they did for that article. So much misinformation for the ara bunch to latch on to.

[Barnfairy]

@Jleegriffith;6222221

[quote=Linny;6217168]No one is giving painkillers strong enough to allow a truly injured horse to race. Yes, horses train on meds, but don’t race on them and the idea that horses are running on the such doses is inane. Enough pain meds to keep a fracture from hurting is going to make a horse unable to compete.

Linny, actually the blocking, injecting and tapping can mask quite a bit of pain so that horse can run. You can’t regulate these things and it is what destroys the horses. I see horses that raced but the next day they can barely walk out of the stall. Or horses that look sound but several months later the joints are so ruined the horse has no chance of a 2nd career. It’s no fun euthanizing 3/4yrs that had a chip but the trainer just kept racing it and the whole joint gets destroyed. What future does that horse have?

There are so many good people who truly care and stop the horses before it comes to the point of needing to block/tap/inject but those who don’t give the industry the bad name.
[/quote]
Yes to this voice of reason and experience.

It isn’t just not fun to have to euthanize a horse before it’s even ten years old because it is too used up to even be pasture sound, it is god damned heart breaking. :no:

All it takes is one stinking rotten egg to taint the dozen. The industry continues to lack an effective method of weeding out bad eggs.

@Rubyfree

Most importantly here- I’ve NEVER met a handicapper at the track who didn’t care about the horses. If handicapping is their favored pass time, you bet your ass they care about the horses. Without the horses their pass time doesn’t exists.

Ah yes, but have you met the multitude of degenerates who wager from the comfort of their home on simulcasts across the country every day? These are the people who have kept racing alive. Grandstands are relative ghost towns in this day and age.

Are there handicappers who care about equine welfare? Absolutely. I’ve met quite a few.

But please, let’s not kid ourselves into thinking that the majority of people who play the ponies put a priority on equine welfare over whatever strategy it is they rely on to guess which horse will cross the finish line first.

No worries. These same people are far more likely to be reading the DRF than the NYT. Articles spewing anti-racing sentiment won’t deter them from betting.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

[QUOTE=Glimmerglass;6225373]
:

It is. The AQHA is no Jockey Club. I’m a QH owner and member. The two are not alike. The racing, breeding, and regulating of both and more of each respective entity and breed is not the same.[/QUOTE]

That’s not entirely true, from a racing perspective. In states where both TB and QH race, they are both regulated by the same state racing commission. In the southwest particularly it’s pretty common for owners, trainers and jockeys to own, train and ride both breeds, and you’ll often see races for both breeds on the same race card, especially in New Mexico. When Trainer Chip Wooley won the Derby with Mine that Bird he had more QHs in his stable than TBs, he probably still does. Indeed the 2 most famous trainers in the USA in the last 30 years both came out of the QH world, Lukas and Baffert.
To you and me, and esp people from back east, they may seem like different worlds, but to the average Joe Blow on the streets the racing looks the same, they jump from a gate, the jockeys wear silks, they often race on the same tracks on the same day.
Not to mention that most racing QHs look just like TBs, and are indeed are mostly TB by blood.

[lifesabreeze]

[QUOTE=Barnfairy;6225654]
Yes to this voice of reason and experience.

It isn’t just not fun to have to euthanize a horse before it’s even ten years old because it is too used up to even be pasture sound, it is god damned heart breaking. :no:

All it takes is one stinking rotten egg to taint the dozen. The industry continues to lack an effective method of weeding out bad eggs.

Ah yes, but have you met the multitude of degenerates who wager from the comfort of their home on simulcasts across the country every day? These are the people who have kept racing alive. Grandstands are relative ghost towns in this day and age.

Are there handicappers who care about equine welfare? Absolutely. I’ve met quite a few.

But please, let’s not kid ourselves into thinking that the majority of people who play the ponies put a priority on equine welfare over whatever strategy it is they rely on to guess which horse will cross the finish line first.

No worries. These same people are far more likely to be reading the DRF than the NYT. Articles spewing anti-racing sentiment won’t deter them from betting. ;)[/QUOTE]

Easily the majority care about the horses. I frequent a few handicapping BB’s that are made up of thousands of “computer” 'cappers. They despise the drugs because of the super trainers bringing downs the odds. And the difficulty of predicting when a horse will receive help or not. But when it comes to breakdowns,they feel for the horses and the people who care for them. They are mostly middle age men,but they have had a dog or two die in their lifetimes. They feel it.

The threads on those BB’s about the Times article are longer than the two on here.

[lifesabreeze]

I have raced at a few tracks that had mixed meets with the QH’s, back in the '80’s and 90’s, it was a very different culture. I have no idea how hard the AQHA or the people involved are pushing for reform within their industry.
I do know I have met many that do care but are frustrated with the slow admission of issues.

In the TB world there are so many ideas and people looking for answers it seems we are tripping over ourselves with possibilities. Many are now in action and we are working on making them better.

For the ara leaning folk,go read some of the links I have posted for details. For those involved in other sport horse disciplines that feel the need to point a finger at us. Please show me what your discipline is doing to stop the drugs and injuries. We can use all the info we can get.

I do so wish we had a national governing body as other sports do.

Found this on QH racing from AQHA site:

http://www.aqha.com/Racing/Content-Pages/Horseman-Info/Racing-Medication-and-Testing-Consortium.aspx

"EqHWIR in a statement said, “Rule 302 in the AQHA Official Handbook of Rules and Regulations state, ‘Without necessity of referral or recommendation by stewards, to enhance penalties and sanctions, AQHA reserves the right to independently direct disciplinary action or sanction against individuals coming under AQHA recognition by their participation in American Quarter Horse racing conducted under the provisions of the AQHA Official Handbook and regulated by duly authorized state racing commissions . . .’

“The EqHWIR will monitor each situation and work with state racing jurisdictions involving medications, abuse and other issues concerning American Quarter Horses and at the appropriate time recommend penalties to the AQHA Executive Committee against the offender(s).

“The EqHWIR strongly encourages all AQHA members and horsemen to work with their respective racing stewards, commissions and the AQHA Racing office, and to report any person violating the rules and regulations of the state, Association of Racing Commissioners International and AQHA to protect the horses, horsemen and fans that enjoy and participate in the sport of American Quarter Horse racing and all horse racing.”"

[Barnfairy]

They are mostly middle age men,but they have had a dog or two die in their lifetimes. They feel it.

Do they feel it enough to spend their money elsewhere?

[lifesabreeze]

[QUOTE=Barnfairy;6225797]
Do they feel it enough to spend their money elsewhere?[/QUOTE]

Why should they? I am involved in racing. Are you saying I should get out of the game because a few do not care for their horses?

What discipline are you involved in?

[Barnfairy]

@lifesabreeze;6225799

Why should they?

I’m not saying they should. My point is that equine welfare is not their priority and therefore the NYT article ultimately will not sway their behavior.

If you must know, my background is dressage and eventing though I can just as often be found in a western saddle. One of my first jobs was exercising racehorses on a farm during the week and walking hots at the track on weekends, and I’ve been involved with transitioning horses off the track ever since.

[lifesabreeze]

[QUOTE=Barnfairy;6225810]
I’m not saying they should. My point is that equine welfare is not their priority and therefore the NYT article ultimately will not sway their behavior.

If you must know, my background is dressage and eventing though I can just as often be found in a western saddle. One of my first jobs was exercising racehorses on a farm during the week and walking hots at the track on weekends, and I’ve been involved with transitioning horses off the track ever since.[/QUOTE]

I know you have, as I follow all who help rehome track horses on this BB. I always read your posts and respect your ideas and opinions. There are so many more options out there now I am very proud to get back into the game. It is the vast majority of the backside now speaking out against those that abuse. Many wanted to before but were afraid to speak up,not so much anymore.

Why should handicappers stop playing? They also keep up on the current news and are aware of the changes. Their desires for change mirror the horsemen and the public. They are no less likely to care about an animal in pain just because they enjoy gambling. I would give you the link so you can read the threads but I don’t want the owner of the board having to spend hours banning the aras. They love constructive criticism about racing and are quite the critics themselves. But they don’t tolerate pearl clutching, hand wringers with no useful ideas on how to improve.