Making a profit off of training/selling horses? Is it possible?

[evelynthemare]

I have always heard that the costs to maintain horses/ponies end up outweighing how much you could make off of them if you sell them. I am starting a job in the horse industry in a couple months, and would have access to keeping horses of my own for fairly cheap. I was wondering if anyone here has actually made a profit or at least broken even on buying young/inexperience horses/ponies and training them for 6 months - a year and then selling them once they are fit for local shows and carrying a younger rider around. I have seen lots of listings for decent looking horses, OTTBs, etc. for between $2000 - 4000, and I’m thinking if I put 6 months-a year on them, get the lead changes, doing nice courses, they could be sold in the $10,000 - $15,000 range. What does everyone think? Opinions? I just wouldn’t want to lose money on this situation. I am sure things come up such as unexpected injuries, high vet bills, etc. that would make it not profitable.

Just interested in experiences and input! Like I said - not necessarily looking to do this for the money. I just think it would be fun to have some project horses and bring some along - with the added benefit of a little extra income on the sale end.

[gottagrey]

With horses you can never tell. Certainly it’s more profitable if your overhead is minimal. The other thing to take into consideration is of course the market. Some people can sell a horse in no time, other times you might carry that horse for quite some time. At $4k horse showing for 6 months at a rated show could well cost you $3K-$6K and that could be on the low side. Add board, feed/shavings, vet, farrier, trailering/gas your profit in the 10-15K range is 2K+ and I’m being conservative since I don’t know what your board will be

[meupatdoes]

Yes it is possible.

One ottb I bought out of a back yard for $3,700 and sold for $30k six months later.

Granted this was at a very high end barn where my AT COST (I was not paying full board rate, just the dry-stall rental plus shavings/grain, and farrier/vet) was roughly $2,000 per month, so that one HAD to sell.

If you know how to ride and train without requiring lots of professional help, and if you know professionals who can market the horse at a good facility, and maybe hook you up with people who free-lease it and put mileage on it, you can make good money.

But you have to know how to train it, and you also have to know the right people to get it sold because unless you are well known it will not go for top dollar. You need someone who is well known and in the right zip code for that. If you don’t have any friends who are ROUTINELY selling horses for $75k plus, good luck.

You also have to pick the right horse. The next few horses I did didn’t make money (I more or less broke even), and the main reason was I wasn’t picky enough about what horse I picked in the first place. So now I only want horses where I can imagine them being worth $100k+ within a year. They may not get there, but at least they are quality enough to give me some room. The expenses are the same whether it moves a 10 or an 8. A horse that might be a really nice, sweet, cute $50k horse one day …I’ll be happy to ride it on someone else’s bill.

[evelynthemare]

Thank you guys for your comments! Very insightful. I’m thinking on a lower level than the rated shows, at least at first. The local shows are very popular in our area. This was kind of a rough estimate of costs for a year:

Horse: $3000

Board (x12): $3600
Shoes (x8): $1280
Shows (x12): $1200 (local shows @ $100 per show)
Misc other: $1000

= about $11,000 for a year.

I agree that it would be very important to find a nice horse with a lot of potential to start. Like I said, this is very much just an idea… playing with the thought and if it’s doable. With 15+ years of training/riding/showing I believe I would have what it takes to bring along a younger horse, with some help/guidance from an older trainer. Any more input is welcome!

[merrygoround]

Now that Meup has given up her professional secrets, I would tell you that it’s a lot of hard work, and a lot of luck!

I’ve never tried it, but been around long enough to live, learn and laugh. :rolleyes:
This from someone old enough to remember Milton Potter, who made his money in dealing in good greenies.

[BostonHJ]

Your numbers seem very optimistic to me, mostly because there is no vet line item :). My concern would be at the local show level in your area, how much of a market is there for a still relatively green horse for $15kish? It also depends on if the barn you are out of moves a lot of horses and hence you have a built in buyer pool. I know it is a venture some are successful at - I bought my horse out of a similar program - but the barns that do it best are the ones that focus on it and can spread the odds across a number of horses.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=evelynthemare;7710663]
Thank you guys for your comments! Very insightful. I’m thinking on a lower level than the rated shows, at least at first. The local shows are very popular in our area. This was kind of a rough estimate of costs for a year:

Horse: $3000

Board (x12): $3600
Shoes (x8): $1280
Shows (x12): $1200 (local shows @ $100 per show)
Misc other: $1000

= about $11,000 for a year.

I agree that it would be very important to find a nice horse with a lot of potential to start. Like I said, this is very much just an idea… playing with the thought and if it’s doable. With 15+ years of training/riding/showing I believe I would have what it takes to bring along a younger horse, with some help/guidance from an older trainer. Any more input is welcome![/QUOTE]

Do the horses at your local circuit sell for $25 -30k?
If so, you could squeak it in still.
NO blemishes, it HAS to be “pretty”, pick a gelding, NO cribbing, NOT A DUMB SIZE . Your job is to find something that the market can not find a thing to complain about, not to try to educate the market on why everyone should still like your horse despite the fact that it is a 15.2 chestnut mare.
Do not take anyone’s word on the size, bring your own stick!!
IF the local horses in your maket go for $30k on a regular basis and are not that far off from the lower-end A circuit divisions, you have a shot. You do not want to do all that work to maayyyybe fingers crossed make $3k.

If you look around and everyone is riding a plain, average moving ottb that they got on craigslist which they WOULD LIKE to sell for $7,500, spare yourself the heartache. Or have another zip code in mind to send the horse to when it is ready to sell.

Also, when you try it, it would be good if you could imagine yourself cantering around the 2’6" with a lead change in three months. If you think this one might take longer than that for courses with changes, move right along to the next one. You don’t have time. The horse needs to be physically and mentally ready to work, follow instructions agreeably, and not require endless hairpulling and accommodation to hop around the 2’6". The locals is an easy job; it should no way no how take a year to get that done. Of course there are horses out there that take longer: don’t buy those ones.

[evelynthemare]

thank you so much for this input. very good points. i have a BBA in Marketing and 15+ years riding/owning/showing, so i buying/training/selling seems like something i’d like to try definitely studying this market is something i need to do more of to see what would make sense.

[hntrjmprpro45]

I’ve had some where I’ve made a good profit and some that I sell at a loss. Above all else, it HAS to have a good brain. Anything that is remotely difficult/complex/spooky, is a really tough sale. And soundness issues and injuries can sneak into the equation as well. So long as you know the market well and can assess horses well (and without bias), you’ll do okay.

Ugh, right now I’m stuck with a slightly small tb mare that is just a little too sensitive for most riders. I’ll probably have to practically give her away. But our sales horses in the 16.2-17h range generate TONS of interest.

[Rel6]

I did exactly what you are talking about. Bought a 5 year old ottb for $600 and sold him a year later for $9000. He was a 16.0H gelding with bombproof and dead quiet pre-installed. Easy easy easy, cute trot, very nice canter, and a square and even jump. Auto change. Had local and very successful show miles in the 2’3’’, had trail ridden, done lessons, etc. I’m just telling you this so you have an idea. This was a very very easy, quiet, and willing horse who didn’t break in to the five figures. He ultimately would have made up into a very easy ammy/kids 3ft horse for someone who wanted to win at local rated stuff.

I made a decent amount on him for several reasons. He lived outside in a cheap area, so board was $270 per month. He had amazing feet and only went in front shoes. I had one vet bill the entire time I had him (for a small laceration on his leg.) I got deals on blankets and already had tack. He also sold very quickly once he was on the market to a young girl within in the barn.

Basically, I was very very lucky. By all means go for it. But only do so if you can afford to loose everything you put in. You cannot go in thinking that every expense is going to pay back two-fold, because the more likely outcome is that you could lose money sinking it into a horse that goes lame, is too hot or nutty, or that just won’t sell.

[Prime_Time_Rider]

The only way you’re going to be able to make money at this is to flip them quickly.
Time equals money.

[jess_h]

I did what you’re talking about for probably a dozen horses over ten years, made money on some, lost money on some, mostly had fun and would have come out ahead if I had stopped one horse sooner. One way to make it more advantageous-if you’re good at paperwork and/or have a CPA you trust) might be to run it as a small business. You’ll have to pay taxes on a profit now and then, but you’ll also get to deduct some of your expenses, and your loss years can offset the taxes on your other income. I owned my own farm when I did this, so your mileage may vary.

(Not a professional tax person, please take that as random-internet-stranger info that’s worth what you just paid for it. Just thinking out loud.)

[LookmaNohands]

It mostly depends on how good you are at picking out the right horse to begin with and what kind of trainer you are to bring it along. So many OTTBs have both soundness and behavior problems you better make darn sure you can handle it if the horse you buy turns out to have a problem of some type. Otherwise the numbers won’t add up.

[CourtneyANYC]

Two notes of advice:

First, never own more horses than you can afford to retire. You need to accept that if you have the bad luck of getting one (or more than one) that has a career ending issue, you may have to support it as a pasture pet for the rest of its life in the event that you can’t give it away to a decent situation. These days it is nearly impossible to give pasture pets away.

Second, think about what happens if the new job doesn’t pan out. If you have a sale horse or two and have to change barns…then what? Just make sure you have a backup plan.

Best of luck!

[Foxtrot_s]

My first thought was “ha, ha, ha.” But, if you would have your own horse anyway, that would be one way, buy, train, sell, until you have built up a reputation. A lot of horses sell because of who is selling them, and if you pay a commission, on top of your expenses, vets, board, shows, it eats away at any ‘profit’. If you have an eye for a horse with presence/temperament/soundness and conformation, instead of getting sucked into any old OTTB that’s cheap…The by-the-hour wage would not be great…and you have to have a combination of luck, skill and salesmanship.

[joiedevie99]

All good advice. I’d also recommend that you start with one, and keep a careful diary with three sections.

1. Monetary Expenses: Every time you spend a dollar on the horse, it goes there. Purchase price, vet check, shipping home, fly spray, bell boots, etc.

2. Capital Used: List every big ticket item that you used with this horse, but didn’t buy new for this horse, i.e. saddle, bridle, tractor? These things are depreciating when you use them with this horse.

3. Time Log: This is where you list all of the time you spend working with the horse. It might just be a date on the left, and a number of hours:minutes on the right.

When your first horse sells, deduct the total on sheet 1 from the sale price. Then divide the total by the number of hours on sheet 3. That is the hourly wage you made on the horse (albeit slightly inflated if you don’t deal with the depreciation).

[Bogie]

[QUOTE=evelynthemare;7710663]
Thank you guys for your comments! Very insightful. I’m thinking on a lower level than the rated shows, at least at first. The local shows are very popular in our area. This was kind of a rough estimate of costs for a year:

Horse: $3000

Board (x12): $3600
Shoes (x8): $1280
Shows (x12): $1200 (local shows @ $100 per show)
Misc other: $1000

= about $11,000 for a year.

I agree that it would be very important to find a nice horse with a lot of potential to start. Like I said, this is very much just an idea… playing with the thought and if it’s doable. With 15+ years of training/riding/showing I believe I would have what it takes to bring along a younger horse, with some help/guidance from an older trainer. Any more input is welcome![/QUOTE]

I think your numbers are optimistic. It’s not clear where you live, but if you can board a horse for $300/month, you may also be in an area where the top prices for horses on the local circuit isn’t that high.

I live in a major metropolitan area and it costs me $450/month to board at a self-care barn (including hay, grain, misc.). If you live in a place where winter shoes are required, then $160/farrier visit may be low (I pay $200 just for four regular shoes). I’d budget at least $2500 for vet care because you would need to cover routine stuff plus the inevitable issue. You also have no budget in there for training (you mentioned you would get some help/guidance). If your boarding facility doesn’t have an indoor, do you live in a part of the country where you can keep a horse in a program year round?

If you would have fun with the process of bringing along a green horse, then go for it but keep in mind that it may not make you any money. I’ve tried it and essentially broke even and that was okay for me because it meant I had a “free” horse for that period of time. Remember, I live in a $$$ area so horses sell for more, too. I also have a business and a family, so I couldn’t spend that much time on horse training.

I really do enjoy bringing along a young/green horse so ultimately I ended up fostering for CANTER. Saw some nice horses and there was no financial risk :D.

[findeight]

If you have 11k in it, that means you make absolutely nothing unless you can sell it for more then 11k and, really, would need to get well over 15k for it to make it anywhere near worth your time.

Like the rest, I think your cost estimate is too low.

But the root questions you have to answer are will people in your area pay at least 15k and ideally more like 20-25k for a LOCAL show horse? And do you personally know anybody who pays 15k+ for horses that would come to you when they want to buy?

No idea where you are but if you cut down the price you pay for the horse by 30% and cut your time frame to 6 months you’d have a better chance to sell it at something other then a dead loss. That’s the rub, many can find a cheap horse and make it up but very few can actually close the deal on a sale. You have a much better chance of selling on the lower end unless you have a lot of friends buying local show horses for over about 7500. Do some thinking about price points and barriers for your intended buyer pool.

Also, sounds like you will be keeping them at your new employers? If true, will they want a commission since you are working on their facility possibly using their client base to market to? Know several who made up and sold with consent of their barn owners…long as they were breaking even or losing money anyway. After they got good/lucky on one, their BOs had a change of heart, two of them had to agree to a commission, the third got 5 days to get off the property.

These BOs all were just fine with it initially so be careful and get the fact you can sell anything you own without commission in writing.

[Tnavas]

My dad always reckoned that the only way you could make money buying and selling horses was to have the customer actually waiting to buy.

It’s one of those situations that is different every time. Buy a nice looking, young TB off the track. Spend 6 weeks schooling it well and you can make a modest turnover.

The horse must be a sensible height and have a sensible nature. Anything hot will be hard to move on.

[IPEsq]

Go talk to people in your area that do a lot of sales and find out what the current market is like in terms of the easier to sell type (breed, degree of fanciness, size, etc.) and price points.