This is a commonly parroted line. But it’s empty rhetoric.
There will always be people like this. Always. From now until the end of time. You can put them all in jail and more will be born tomorrow.
Meanwhile, beloved pets, children, elderly persons get slaughtered, countless others disfigured, disabled–by a breed/type that is bred for this, has been bred for this kind of attack for generations, and carries it out on a regular basis. These are no isolated incidents. No freak accidents. The breed/type is known for it, bred for it, selected for it.
You cannot ban people, not even certain kinds of people. Society cannot even ensure that people are responsible with their own children, not even ensure that people take care of themselves. “Blame the owner” sounds great, but it’s a massive cop out and excuse to do nothing, and a guarantee that the carnage will continue. More kids will die in horrific manners, more pets will be slaughtered mercilessly. All to protect one breed/type of dog. It’s senseless.
Whether pit bulls have been bred for generations to kill is hard to determine. Remember Vick hung and electrocutes his pits that refused to fight. I do think however that some posters are obsessed by pit bulls. When a more balanced philosophy is achieved it will mean more. I can’t recall ever seeing a pit bull in public–ever. Actually it would have to have a sign around it’s neck identifying it.
There are some QHs outcrossed to TBs that are slow but that doesn’t change the fact that they are the #1 choice for running barrels. There are QHs that are afraid of cows but that doesn’t change the fact that QHs are the #1 choice for all cow work. There is diversity within a breed/type and individual/personal differences.
There are even sons and daughters of Secretariet that grace the hunter ring because they are just plain slow with no drive. But Thoroughbreds are, straight up, indisputable, the first choice of all racing enthusiasts. If you want a race horse, you get a Thoroughbred. Period.
You probably don’t realize it but you just contradicted yourself in two back-to-back sentences. If you, personally, cannot ID a pit bull by sight, then you cannot say that you have never seen one in public. Some people are better at breed ID then others and that’s ok. Not everyone can see Morgan blood in a horse standing in a kill pen but the Morgan rescue groups have people that are pretty good at it. They pull ones they suspect are Morgan and DNA test them. Most times they hit a match. They’re good. But not everyone has that ability.
I had never personally seen a pit bull until I moved to Ontario and I’ve seen tons of pit bulls here in Ontario. When visiting Toronto in the past you couldn’t walk down the street without seeing a pit bull at every corner. Before the BSL I saw pit bulls being walked in those huge studded, leather collars and flimsy leashes. The majority of the ones I’ve seen had a constant alert attitude, looking for and determining whether each person, dog, other animal they saw was a threat. Now I only mostly see relaxed pit bulls properly leashed and muzzled, it’s quite refreshing actually.
UK banned Pit Bulls (and their types)along with Japanese Todas, Dogo Argentinos and Fila Braziliero in the early 90s. TBH I don’t think I’ve ever seen the latter 3 breeds even when they were legal and pit bull types are defined by measurements by the authorities if a dog is seized.Ireland has the control of Dogs Act that lists 10 breeds that have strict rules regarding owning them http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/animal_welfare_and_control/control_of_dogs.html
Certainly in Dublin this law is rigorously enforced as I bring my rottweiler to Dublin a couple of times a year and will be tolds on entry to Dublin Port to muzzle him if he isn’t already even though he is in the boot of the car.
Most serious dog attacks here are by large breeds but not any particular one if that makes sense? Mastiffs, GSDs, Rottweilers and other guarding types seem to be the largest culprits but I can think of two reports of JRTs killing babies in recent years. The true dog fighters (scum that they are) don’t tend to let their dogs loose to cause injury to the general public as they are so far underground due to illegality and I believe that they are where most of the pit bull types are found and immediately destroyed when raided by the police. So attacks by pit types are not an issue in the UK anyway.
Like I said I know little or nothing about pit bulls so I can’t comment about their suitability as pets but my point is that there has been no reduction, in fact an increase in dog attacks despite BSL. What I am seeing signs of (but very slowly sadly) is a change in attitude in responsibility required to own a dog,any dog. This has been led by an increase in legislation that holds the owner criminally rather than civilly responsible for any damage by their dog with LE beginning to actually prosecute offences.
IMHO one of the dangers of BSL is that it gives irresponsible dog owners a get out of jail free card if they have a legal breed ie if you check the bite statistics in the UK, the breeds with the highest number of bites are the Labrador Retriever ands Staffordshire Bull Terrier. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dog-breed-most-likely-to-attack-bite-you-revealed-a7166296.html OK, they are some of the most numerous breeds in the country but both are big enough to do serious damage but everyone thinks of the softy famliy friendly Lab, don’t they???
It’s no different to driving a car, if you have a dog you have a responsibility to keep your dog, no matter what breed or size contained and under control. Like a driving license it is a privilege not a right to have one and there should be a mechanism in place to police those that don’t follow the law and put others in danger before some one is hurt/injured but the blunt instrument of BSL doesn’t deal with the owners who would have pits by choice but when the choice is removed will have a breed that is just as dangerous due to the crappy owners. It’s a false sense of security - no pit bulls won’t mean no dog attacks unfortunately.
This is a commonly parroted line. But it's empty rhetoric.
There will always be people like this. Always. From now until the end of time. You can put them all in jail and more will be born tomorrow.
Meanwhile, beloved pets, children, elderly persons get slaughtered, countless others disfigured, disabled--by a breed/type that is bred for this, has been bred for this kind of attack for generations, and carries it out on a regular basis. These are no isolated incidents. No freak accidents. The breed/type is known for it, bred for it, selected for it.
You cannot ban people, not even certain kinds of people. Society cannot even ensure that people are responsible with their own children, not even ensure that people take care of themselves. "Blame the owner" sounds great, but it's a massive cop out and excuse to do nothing, and a guarantee that the carnage will continue. More kids will die in horrific manners, more pets will be slaughtered mercilessly. All to protect one breed/type of dog. It's senseless.
It’s what has to change though - the people like that HAVE to change, even be forced to change by societal expectation and legislation that is enforced. Again a driving analogy, not that long ago DUI was illegal but socially acceptable in the UK and Ireland anyway. If someone was caught drink driving, people would sympathise about the driver losing their licence. Now, 20 years later it is totally the opposite - people judge hardly and quite rightly so. It needs to become the same for those with out of control dogs - judge the deed not the breed.
As I said before my breed is Rottweilers. I’ve been involved with them for many years including the days when Pits were unheard of and they were the devil dogs of the day. These days I have rescues and am involved in breed rescue so I see many that have not been raised or managed well, not always because of cruelty but often a lack of understanding or ability of how to appropriately train a hard headed, large guarding breed. As a result, I have had to hold dogs for the vet to PTS as there is unlikely to be a safe suitable home for these damaged dogs. To me that is responsibility. I adore the breed but I hold the dogs to very high standards. I don’t think those standards are impossible to legislate or enforce nor do I think that BSL will protect from the type of people that you describe - they will be a liability no matter what animal they have/
Although I was born and raised in Toronto I seldom go there not even to the Royal and used to encounter many off-leash dogs not disturbing anyone. Generations of my family used to live there . None now though. The last time I was there we attended the IMAX theatre at Ontario Place where we were the only people in the line speaking English.
I think we [society] can, and need to do both–BSL and dangerous dog laws. They are not mutually exclusive, though frequently alluded to in these debates. But that’s not necessary, nor very productive. Thanks for your post.
CT re what I do, first of all while I love pit bull types and large dogs in general, they are not the only ones in need. I foster any large dogs that need fostering and litters. Here is 4 of the 9 hound puppies that came to me with their mom, their eyes still closed when they came from the shelter. They were about 4-5 months old here. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f…type=3&theater
3 of our 4 dogs were road finds, with Tucker the big dog a high kill shelter rescue. My barn cat Bronco showed up on the farm.
So in addition to fostering dogs for actual rescues, I also pick up and rescue and rehome when I can, often paying their vetting Why, because my county does not have an animal shelter. They only contract with a rescue about an hour away to pick up the strays found in our county. Several road finds that I have picked up (here is another road find: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f…type=3&theater) have gone to this rescue, but after visiting it myself in delivering a dog to them not sure I will do so again. Did not get a good feel from that rescue.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f…type=3&theater here are 3 abandoned half grown puppies that were found in my county, I took them in for awhile until they could move to other fosters and have since found homes.
I really do not know how many dogs I have fostered over the years, often paying for their vetting from spaying/neutering to HW treatment. Or getting donations to cover the vetting costs for my fosters, soliciting from friends and family.
Litter of pit bull type puppies,(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f…type=3&theater) one of the brindles went to a horse person I had met. She did not do right by him, letting him roam and get hit by a car. I took him back, dragging a front leg from radial nerve damage. Here is a friend of mine, DVM who practices acupuncture. This is us treating Stewie hoping he would regain use of that leg. No luck, so my personal vet who loved Stewie amputated it at a greatly reduced fee. He shortly found a home as a tripod with another pit bull female. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f…type=3&theater BTW acupuncture was done for free because of our friendship.
I also donate some when I can, especially to Friends to the Forlorn a pit bull rescue out of ATL. I do so because they are an incredible rescue, not only saving the bullies but outreaching to owners with help altering pets, vaccinating pets and education.
Another rescue more local to me, Critical Care for Animal Angels take some of the more difficult cases on. I have also donated to them when I can.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f…type=3&theater
Just for fun, Lulu one of the pit bull puppies in a picture I call wicked witch of the west, so reminded me of Wizard of Oz. She had crawled under my manure spreader to chew on some vines caught under there.
Good on you khall, it seems that you are active with helping pit bulls by temporarily fostering them and you said you do donate financially to other pit bull rescues.
Did you find a good home for that gorgeous shepherd?
CT yes the GSD found a home quickly. He went to the rescue that the county contracts with because I was full with fosters. The most dogs I have picked up at one time close to our farm was 4, 2 puppies (lab types) mom (small lab type) and a spaniel already neutered. All in the middle of the road, probably dumped.
I had said earlier in this thread, CT, that I fostered dogs, often pit bulls. Showing pictures of 2 that were my personal favorite fosters, Petunia and Booker. You were dismissive of my efforts. What is the difference? Why kudos now?
Booker after undergoing HW treatment and spending time with me and others at the farm learning that people are a good thing. He had obviously been beaten, he would flatten himself onto the ground if you raised and arm. Had no ideas what toys were. https://www.facebook.com/keri.hall.35/videos/vb.100000861553573/675856522453060/?type=2&theater He found a home in TN with 3 cats. One of the softest dogs to deal with.
The bullies are just so resilient and forgiving. With BSLs these dogs would not have a chance to live, they are part of the unwanted overpopulation of pets, not just PB types, but dogs, puppies, cats and kittens. Some shelters here in GA have a policy of only releasing PB types to rescues, never adopting out to the general public. Many don’t make it out. I wished I could do more and I agree it is a drop in the bucket, but I certainly changed the life for the better with the ones that I have fostered.
this would have been Tucker or Petunia or Booker or Sage or Lou or…don’t kid yourself that euthanizing in a shelter is so humane. These dogs know, are often scared and many times do not have caring individuals that are there at the end. As a vet tech I was present for “humane” euthanasia of several cats that had been surrendered by their family. The cats were terrified. Looking back they should have been knocked out with ketamine first and then PTS but that was not my call as the tech. One fought hard, it was not a pleasant death.
As for me, yes, we make regular donations to our local breed specific rescue and occasionally buy their merchandise. We also made a one-time donation to the Montreal SPCA when they were proceeding in court. We are not in the position to foster or adopt another dog at the moment, cause we have two (rescue) dogs right now, but I will sometimes drive transports.
I volunteer with Animal Services (not breed specific, just a general “responsible dog ownership education / pick up your poop” program). I bring my dogs to their events when appropriate, as demo dogs or just to bring them out in public and give interested people a personal experience. I also participate politically, contact the councillor for our ward when there are dog-specific discussions in city council etc.
This topic has come up before on another thread and someone said they think Pit Bull owner should “do more” than that. I am not quite sure what the requirements are to be considered engaged enough.
"Like I said I know little or nothing about pit bulls so I can’t comment about their suitability as pets but my point is that there has been no reduction, in fact an increase in dog attacks despite BSL. What I am seeing signs of (but very slowly sadly) is a change in attitude in responsibility required to own a dog,any dog. This has been led by an increase in legislation that holds the owner criminally rather than civilly responsible for any damage by their dog with LE beginning to actually prosecute offences.
IMHO one of the dangers of BSL is that it gives irresponsible dog owners a get out of jail free card if they have a legal breed ie if you check the bite statistics in the UK, the breeds with the highest number of bites are the Labrador Retriever ands Staffordshire Bull Terrier. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk…-a7166296.html OK, they are some of the most numerous breeds in the country but both are big enough to do serious damage but everyone thinks of the softy famliy friendly Lab, don’t they???
It’s no different to driving a car, if you have a dog you have a responsibility to keep your dog, no matter what breed or size contained and under control. Like a driving license it is a privilege not a right to have one and there should be a mechanism in place to police those that don’t follow the law and put others in danger before some one is hurt/injured but the blunt instrument of BSL doesn’t deal with the owners who would have pits by choice but when the choice is removed will have a breed that is just as dangerous due to the crappy owners. It’s a false sense of security - no pit bulls won’t mean no dog attacks unfortunately.
It’s what has to change though - the people like that HAVE to change, even be forced to change by societal expectation and legislation that is enforced. Again a driving analogy, not that long ago DUI was illegal but socially acceptable in the UK and Ireland anyway. If someone was caught drink driving, people would sympathise about the driver losing their licence. Now, 20 years later it is totally the opposite - people judge hardly and quite rightly so. It needs to become the same for those with out of control dogs - judge the deed not the breed."
I think about seat belt laws changing motor vehicle deaths which are much more of an issue than dog bite fatalities.
from this article by CDC (who do not agree with BSLs because of the very issue cbmcts also stated as those of use who are against BSLs have stated) about seat belts: [h=2]CDC Recommendations[/h] [h=3]Primary enforcement seat belt laws[/h]
Laws requiring seat belt use are either “primary” or “secondary” enforcement laws. Primary enforcement laws allow police officers to pull over drivers and issue tickets just because the drivers—or their passengers— aren’t wearing seat belts. Secondary enforcement laws only allow police officers to issue tickets for seat belt violations if drivers have been pulled over for some other offense.
Secondary enforcement significantly limits the ability of officers to enforce seat belt laws. Rates of seat belt use are 9 percentage points higher in primary enforcement states than secondary states.8
If the overall prevalence of seat belt use in states with secondary enforcement laws had matched the higher prevalence in states with primary laws, an additional 7.3 million adults would have buckled up in 2008.8 Increasing the number of states with primary enforcement seat belt laws covering all positions will increase seat belt use and save lives. [h=3]Enhanced enforcement of existing seat belt laws[/h]
“Enhanced enforcement” programs seek to better support seat belt laws by either increasing the average number of citations each officer issues or by increasing the number of officers on patrol. These measures are supported by publicity campaigns, like the successful “Click It or Ticket” initiative.
Research has shown that enhanced enforcement programs increase seat belt use by a median of 16 percentage points.9 Communities that follow this model and implement these programs will increase seat belt use.
Laws are what changes people, laws that are effective that is, which BSLs are not effective in reducing dog bites/fatalities. With all of the unwanted pets (not just pit bull types) that are euthanized every year, it is the animals that have much more to fear from humans rather than humans having to fear animals.
The thing is you can not legislate how an owner manages their pet.
You can not require training, and other suitable management that might reduce incidences.
So, the dog gets the short end of the stick.
I don’t dislike PBs.
I don’t hate guns.
But I hate what they both, in the wrong hands, can do.
Since you can’t change those hands, you have to either approach the problem from another angle or not approach the problem at all.
Not dealing with the problem doesn’t do the dogs or the breed any favors.
AF what do you mean you cannot legislate how an owner manages their pets? What do you think leash laws do? Laws about abuse and neglect do? Spay neuter laws?
It is the people who need managing/educating/even being charged either by hitting their pocket book or with criminal charges.
Could use the same argument for BSL laws. None of those above laws eliminate the above societal issues. That is the argument against BSL laws. “Well they don’t eliminate the problem so no point in enacting [BSL]”.
Again, meanwhile, more dogs of other breeds will get slaughtered by a relentlessly attacking pit bull in the coming days. You can bet the farm on it. More children will be disfigured, disabled, torn to pieces, disemboweled, on the city streets, walking to school, playing with friends. More of our elderly killed in the most horrific ways imaginable. More strong able-bodied persons will lose use of limbs, lose limbs themselves, suffer PTSD, even lose their lives. All at the [mouths] of pits this year. Like last year and the year before, etc last 20 years or more.
Yet upthread there is a pit bull person bemoaning poor pitties being put down at the shelter where maybe one in 10 experiences brief stress via humane euthanasia gone bad. For real.
I really hate to go there but–if you asked any of the past pit bull victims which way they would have preferred to have gone, what do you think they would say? Yet we have activists turning a blind eye to it all, concerned only with the plight of pit bulls. Never concern for their victims; past or potential. No concern for that, there always seems someone or something else to blame. Seems quite nuts to me.
BSL accompanied by dangerous dog laws with ‘teeth’ [no pun intended] is the only wise move going forward. I realize it will likely never occur in today’s social media world, not until the rhetoric changes.
Ps. This is what BSL does. Pit bull people are famous for pleading that we blame the owners, not the breed, yet no one is, or has ever proposed laws that require pit bulls to pay a penalty or appear in court. No one pushing for BSL proposes that the dogs just get taken away and the owner gets off scott-free. ‘Blame the owner, not the breed’ really seems like just empty words from the pro-pit bull camp, otherwise please explain the difference.
Remember–BSL can, and should be enacted hand-in-hand with blanket dangerous dog laws.
I don’t think I was actually dismissive of your post about your efforts earlier, if it was seen that way I apologize. We were talking about how to get the pit bull problem under control, I firmly believe that no matter how many people like you that take a “large” active effort it helping the abandoned pit bulls…it is not going to fix the problem. There are simply too many mishandled or abandoned pit bulls put into this situation by irresponsible owners and a lack of strict ownership rules and laws.
The reason I asked for more information from the pit bull advocates on here is because there’s a difference between paying lip service and actually doing something that might make a difference. Another pit bull owner on here was raving about her dogs and when the suggestion of a law requiring all pit bulls to be properly leashed and muzzled in public, she vehemently disagreed and said she wouldn’t muzzle her dogs. To me that is a classic case of a pit bull fanatic paying lip service and then not stepping up to the plate. That is a person that makes themself seem to be an advocate but then they are not willing to do whatever they can to help, in short…irresponsible.
Adopting one or two pit bulls or donating once a year is helpful to the cause but isn’t going to put a dent in the overall problem, there simply is not enough fosters/adopters to handle the number of the unwanted/abandoned. How could the problem be fixed when for every pit bull that is “hopefully” placed in a good home, six more pit puppies are born somewhere else. It’s putting a very small bandaid on a huge human made boo boo. Even with people like you I believe it’s a case of too little, too late. Even with the efforts of others like you, people are continuing to be attacked and/or killed by pit bulls and that shouldn’t be happening at all…full stop.
As hard as you work at this pit bull situation I believe your efforts will prove to be futile in the end when the US starts putting pit bull BSLs in place in more areas. I think that this move to BSLs in more areas is inevitable and it will just be a matter of time and more injured and dead people before it happens.
From your postings I assume you are a hater of dogs and would love to see every dog banned. I agree pit bulls shouldn’t attack persons or dogs and my sympathies go out to the old man’s family. And I have been around dogs all my life and have only been concerned about one dog coming at me and my companion dog aggressively and we were untouched. It’s disturbing to try and understand your extreme philosophy regarding dogs.
