Man fatally mauled, dog killed, by pit bulls on dog walk

[CaliforniaDreamer]

Rubles, kijiji has ads all the time, as well as many Facebook buy/sell groups. They really are quite easy to acquire, whether you want a puppy or adult, take your pick, lots to choose from.

[PDDT]

Had a spare moment at work and looked at the kijiji.ca that I posted - I think most or all of the ads were from a rescue in Ottawa that states the dogs must be adopted outside of Ontario due to the ban.

But - have a look at this article - quite interesting: http://www.metronews.ca/news/toronto/2016/11/20/pit-bull-sales-ontario-illegal.html

The article gives some interesting insight into how few people were charged (yeah!) in Toronto, the largest poplulation pool in Ontario and how difficult it is to compile statistics because each municipality is responsible for enforcing the law so there is no Ontario wide compilation of charges.

Googling also lists sites with real ads for people selling pit bulls.

[khall]

@Sswor

One thing I’ll add that seems to be widely ignored is this: there is a vast chasm of difference between a dog bite and a mauling.

Protests to BSL that state repeatedly that the laws fail to reduce the number of dog bites are glossing over this important fact which is forefront to the debate. I am loathe to bring back up the phenotypical traits, combined with the breed-specific personality [tenacity] that makes a pit bull “bite” a whole different ball of wax then narrow muzzled dogs, or block headed dogs that lack the fortitude required to sustain a prolonged attack.

Sigh. All dogs [can] bite. We all agree on that. All dog bites are not the same.

Sigh, Sswor, please clarify your statements above, also please give proven facts from reputable organizations to back up your inflammatory rhetoric. CT too please because you were barking up this tree too.

Are you saying that ONLY pit bull types “maul”? That a narrow muzzled dog like say a GSD will not bite as hard as a pit bull type? If that is what you are implying, then you really need to do way more research. Dog bite strength or “bite force” has not been reliably able to be determined in dogs for many reasons, but what is extrapolated from the little research that has been done on dog bite force is that the bigger the dog the harder the bite. Stands to reason.

This is what has been found to be common denominators in dog bite fatalities: from JAVMA

• In 87% there was an absence of an able-bodied person to intervene
• 45% of the victims were less than 5-years old
• 85% of the victims had only incidental or no familiarity with the dogs
• 84% of the dogs were not neutered
• 77% of the victims had compromised ability (age or other conditions) to interact appropriately with dogs
• 76% of the dogs were kept isolated from regular positive human interactions
• 38% of the dog owners had histories of prior mismanagement of dogs
• 21% of the dog owners had a history of abuse or neglect of dogs
• In 81% of the attacks, four or more of the above factors were involved
• 31% of the dog breeds differed from media reports
• 40% of the dog breeds differed from both media and animal control reports
• Only 18% of the dogs had validated (DNA) breed identification
• 20 breeds and 2 known mixed breeds were represented in the attacks

[CanadianTrotter]

@CaliforniaDreamer

Anyone who thinks that banning any specific breed works, is extremely narrow minded.

And I believe that anyone that doesn’t see that the Ontario pit bull BSL alleviated and reduced the overpopulation as well as the number of bites, attacks, maulings and deaths committed by pit bulls is being willfuly ignorant.

[Sswor]

Khall, simply reading my post will answer the questions you directed at me.

[CanadianTrotter]

@PDDT

But you keep claiming it is also a dangerous dog law. Sadly it has failed in that aspect as the number of dog bites in Ontario has increased.

It seems to me that there are two issues that make pit bulls dangerous. 1) unlawful use in dog fighting - that needs to be dealt with by law enforcement, not civic law and we (Ontarians) need to put our full support behind law enforcement (police and SPCA enforcement officers) in that effort and 2) people who like aggressive breeds and tend to use training methods which bring out aggressive tendencies - no law is going to prevent that - when there are no pit bulls (whatever a a pit bull might be because that is a hard definition to pin down) these people will move to the next large “scary” breed. I live near you (Hamilton area) and there are sure a lot of huge mastiffs around here - just saying…

And as to what Ontario rescues are doing about Pit Bulls - many of them transport them to the US to be adopted. That is one of the effects of our BSL.

The pit bull is deemed a dangerous dog, regulations require all pit bulls to be properly leashed and securely muzzled in public regardless of whether it has an aggression or bite history or not. All other dog breeds are not required to wear a muzzle in public until it has shown it’s aggressive or has a bite history. Pit bulls are not treated the same as other breeds under the dangerous dog law…they are categorized separately.

There are a lot of mastiffs in Hamilton, I mentioned the friendly and curious one in the store that had a muzzle hanging off his collar that would be put in place by his responsible owner before they went back out into the public. The owner also kept this mastiff on a short and tight leash while talking to me and the store owner.

Today as I was out shopping I walked by a man with a pit bull type, it wasn’t muzzled as required by law. The dog was walking behind his owner on a loose leash, head down, shoulders in and hunched down with his tail between his legs. As I walked past this dog it looked at me with its head at a fearful/uncertain angle, his eye contact and body language was screaming, “I’m either going to try and bolt and run or I’m going to bite in fear if you approach me or get too close”.

I have no fear of dogs but the pit bull did worry me and had my attention.

[CanadianTrotter]

@khall

Sigh, Sswor, please clarify your statements above, also please give proven facts from reputable organizations to back up your inflammatory rhetoric. CT too please because you were barking up this tree too.

Are you saying that ONLY pit bull types “maul”? That a narrow muzzled dog like say a GSD will not bite as hard as a pit bull type? If that is what you are implying, then you really need to do way more research. Dog bite strength or “bite force” has not been reliably able to be determined in dogs for many reasons, but what is extrapolated from the little research that has been done on dog bite force is that the bigger the dog the harder the bite. Stands to reason.

This is what has been found to be common denominators in dog bite fatalities: from JAVMA

• In 87% there was an absence of an able-bodied person to intervene
• 45% of the victims were less than 5-years old
• 85% of the victims had only incidental or no familiarity with the dogs
• 84% of the dogs were not neutered
• 77% of the victims had compromised ability (age or other conditions) to interact appropriately with dogs
• 76% of the dogs were kept isolated from regular positive human interactions
• 38% of the dog owners had histories of prior mismanagement of dogs
• 21% of the dog owners had a history of abuse or neglect of dogs
• In 81% of the attacks, four or more of the above factors were involved
• 31% of the dog breeds differed from media reports
• 40% of the dog breeds differed from both media and animal control reports
• Only 18% of the dogs had validated (DNA) breed identification
• 20 breeds and 2 known mixed breeds were represented in the attacks

Khall, it isn’t the strength of the bite…it is the number of bites and length of the attack. Most dogs will bite 1-2 times and retreat, the majority of pit bulls do not.

[khall]

quote from CT:

Khall, it isn’t the strength of the bite…it is the number of bites and length of the attack. Most dogs will bite 1-2 times and retreat, the majority of pit bulls do not.

Again, this is your beliefs where is the facts that your beliefs are based on? You have not posted one single reputable organization that is in favor of BSLs. Not one reputable study that shows PB types are more likely to be involved in dog bite fatalities. You cannot because no reputable study has shown such, no reputable organization is in favor of BSLs. All you and Sswor and vacation have posted are your beliefs, inflammatory rhetoric (most dogs bite 1-2 times and retreat, the majority of pit bulls do not) not facts. Read what I quoted from JAVMA, breed is not a factor in dog bite fatalities. That was a 10 yr long study done. The only common denominator found in the dog most often is that the attacking dog was an intact male dog.

[CanadianTrotter]

@khall

quote from CT:

Khall, it isn’t the strength of the bite…it is the number of bites and length of the attack. Most dogs will bite 1-2 times and retreat, the majority of pit bulls do not.

Again, this is your beliefs where is the facts that your beliefs are based on? You have not posted one single reputable organization that is in favor of BSLs. Not one reputable study that shows PB types are more likely to be involved in dog bite fatalities. You cannot because no reputable study has shown such, no reputable organization is in favor of BSLs. All you and Sswor and vacation have posted are your beliefs, inflammatory rhetoric (most dogs bite 1-2 times and retreat, the majority of pit bulls do not) not facts. Read what I quoted from JAVMA, breed is not a factor in dog bite fatalities. That was a 10 yr long study done. The only common denominator found in the dog most often is that the attacking dog was an intact male dog.

I don’t need to read a supposedly reputable source that is quite possibly biased when the pit bull attacks are plastered all over the news. Pictures of blood everywhere and the proof positive pictures of mangled faces and bodies is enough to tell me what any pit bull/pit bull type is capable of. The reports of those who witnessed the attacks are proof enough as well as the videos of numerous pit bull attacks is enough as well.

[rugbygirl]

The numbers you quoted do NOT lead to the conclusion that “breed is not a factor.” Or that “the only common denominator is that the attacking dog was an intact male.”

[khall]

Ah, ok CT, you get your “facts” from news reports. I get it, no research needed there. BTW did not know that the JAVMA or CDC were biased sites! Carry on then.

Actually rugby girl yes, that was the conclusion to the 10 yr long study, no one breed aka the dreaded pit bull, was found to be responsible for the majority of dog bite fatalities. 20 breeds were found and 2 mix breeds when breed could be factually determined. But 84% of the dogs were not neutered, aka intact male dogs.

Here quoted in plain English for you:

• [I]Spay or neuter your dog[/I]. Intact (non-neutered) male dogs are responsible for approximately 80 percent of fatal bites. When dogs are altered, they lose some of their territorial instincts, including a lot of their territorial aggression.

From this site https://www.aaha.org/pet_owner/pet_h...or/biting.aspx Here too http://www.aspca.org/about-us/aspca-...ic-legislation

Sswor, no I have yet to see any reputable organizations that you have sited to back up your inflammatory rhetoric on pit bulls. Those are just your words and beliefs not facts or research by reputable unbiased organizations. There is a long list of reputable organizations that clearly state why they are against BSLs, why the research has led to their conclusions.

[Sswor]

Show of hands–who needs a study to determine what breed their next top barrel prospect needs to be?

[DogIsMyCopilot]

Anyone else reminded of Breitbart “news” here?

[khall]

Well Sswor, I have yet to see you or vacation or CT supporting BSL against WBs because they won’t run barrels, so yeah, your “feelings” on pit bull type dogs are not credible when they fly against all credible research that is out there.

Exactly DIMC!

[CanadianTrotter]

@khall

Ah, ok CT, you get your “facts” from news reports. I get it, no research needed there. BTW did not know that the JAVMA or CDC were biased sites! Carry on then.

Actually rugby girl yes, that was the conclusion to the 10 yr long study, no one breed aka the dreaded pit bull, was found to be responsible for the majority of dog bite fatalities. 20 breeds were found and 2 mix breeds when breed could be factually determined. But 84% of the dogs were not neutered, aka intact male dogs.

Here quoted in plain English for you:

• [I]Spay or neuter your dog[/I]. Intact (non-neutered) male dogs are responsible for approximately 80 percent of fatal bites. When dogs are altered, they lose some of their territorial instincts, including a lot of their territorial aggression.

From this site https://www.aaha.org/pet_owner/pet_h...or/biting.aspx Here too http://www.aspca.org/about-us/aspca-...ic-legislation

Sswor, no I have yet to see any reputable organizations that you have sited to back up your inflammatory rhetoric on pit bulls. Those are just your words and beliefs not facts or research by reputable unbiased organizations. There is a long list of reputable organizations that clearly state why they are against BSLs, why the research has led to their conclusions.

If what you say is true, why are the majority of the states enforcing BSL? It seems like it’s only a matter of time before the rest of them jump on board, it seems that you’re fighting a losing battle. Quite possibly there might be a few states left that doesn’t enforce it and maybe the truly dedicated pit bull lovers will move there?

The fact that BSL is active in so many states only proves the extent of the pit bull problem in the US.

[khall]

Quote from CT: If what you say is true, why are the majority of the states enforcing BSL?

CT where are you getting your information? The states are usually not the ones adopting BSLs it is individual communities. In fact 12 states have passed laws prohibiting BSLs.

From here: http://www.americanbar.org/newslette…x/pitbull.html

Also from above site: One of the few known instances in which a breed ban’s effectiveness was examined and reported on in the United States occurred in Prince George’s County, Maryland, where a task force was formed in 2003 to look at the effectiveness of its pit bull ban. The task force concluded that the public’s safety had not improved as a result of the ban, despite the fact that the county had spent more than $250,000 per year to round up and destroy banned dogs. Finding that other, non–breed–specific laws already on the books covered vicious animal, nuisance, leash, and other public health and safety concerns, the task force recommended repealing the ban.

This shows the BSLs in the US: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer…2534999997&z=4

BSLs play into peoples fears as evidence by posters here. BSLs are hard to enforce, unwieldy and $ and time consuming. They may be on the books as laws but are often not rigorously enforced. Heck the dang leash laws are not enforced!

[CanadianTrotter]

@khall

Quote from CT: If what you say is true, why are the majority of the states enforcing BSL?

CT where are you getting your information? The states are usually not the ones adopting BSLs it is individual communities. In fact 12 states have passed laws prohibiting BSLs.

From here: http://www.americanbar.org/newsletter/publications/gp_solo_magazine_home/gp_solo_magazine_index/pitbull.html

Also from above site: One of the few known instances in which a breed ban’s effectiveness was examined and reported on in the United States occurred in Prince George’s County, Maryland, where a task force was formed in 2003 to look at the effectiveness of its pit bull ban. The task force concluded that the public’s safety had not improved as a result of the ban, despite the fact that the county had spent more than $250,000 per year to round up and destroy banned dogs. Finding that other, non–breed–specific laws already on the books covered vicious animal, nuisance, leash, and other public health and safety concerns, the task force recommended repealing the ban.

This shows the BSLs in the US: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1GCs6dO5VMkPVqF-ZtytCd9_p-S0&hl=en_US&ll=35.560606525316906%2C-112.51412534999997&z=4

BSLs play into peoples fears as evidence by posters here.

From here.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/06/bsl-map_n_7216190.html

[khall]

CT the map I referenced broke it down more thoroughly to individual communities, not just states. BTW I live in one of those blue states and can absolutely with 100% full knowledge say that my community (county) does not have a BSL that is enforced or even on the books. Nor do the surrounding areas. As I have said earlier in this thread, my county does not even have a shelter or AC, they contract with a rescue to pick up the strays.

BSLs are not widespread, are not well enforced if at all. So no I do not anticipate having to move from my home any time soon. In fact as more and more well reasoned people get involved and understand the research that is out there and on going, I anticipate BSLs will end up like the dodo.

This piece goes country by country showing how each has determined that BSLs do not reduce dog bites.

http://www.fairdog.dk/elements/docum…de-failure.pdf

[rubles]

When a victim of a dog bite goes to the ER here, medical personnel ask and report the breed of dog responsible. So anyone could name any breed they chose. One victim referred to the breed as a loup-garou(spelling?) in other words a were wolf. It wasn’t challenged and most people in this province don’t speak French either.

[Sswor]

@khall

BSLs are hard to enforce, unwieldy and $ and time consuming. They may be on the books as laws but are often not rigorously enforced. Heck the dang leash laws are not enforced!

Going to 100% agree with you here.

There are things we all agree with, on both sides, common ground exists on this subject.