a series of Maulings, children/adults are killed by what appears to be the same breed/type of companion dog (as opposed to Wild or Feral Dogs) so Politicians have to be seen to “do something”.
so Breed Specific Legislation is born.
as with all new Legislation, after a while Amendments will be made. depending of course which ‘side’ is more proactive as to what/who exactly those Amendments will favour.
or are many here suggesting that nothing should be done after a dog or dogs kill (or just maul) a Human Being?
that it’s all just a big meh, just the way of the world so why on earth would we want Legislators to step in?
or does that only work when it’s not You or Your child that’s mauled/killed?
iow, got any other ideas besides BSL/Dangerous Dog Legislation, if so lets hear them!?
Thylacine, you have not read this thread very thoroughly if you do not think that those of us who oppose BSL also opposes dangerous dog laws. In fact, we all have firmly stated over and over again that dangerous dog laws that are enforced as well as education like Calgary has implemented is the best way to prevent dog bite fatalities. Over and over again, we have all firmly stated this. In fact in the many links I have posted as to why BSLs do not work to reduce dog bite fatalities, those links/research also state that dangerous dog laws and education are best at reducing dog bite fatalities.
I go even further because I also feel that the spay neuter laws are imperative to not only help reduce the unwanted pet population but to also help to reduce dog bite fatalities since 84% of the dogs that have been the offenders in dog bite fatalities in the US have been intact male dogs.
BSL that are implemented are done so without any basis in research or facts. They are difficult and expensive to execute. They, as all the many many research/facts out there says, do nothing to make the general public safer.
CT: Lol…Chancellor is that you?
No, just another lover of the block headed dogs, though I do not own a typical one. I have fostered them over the years though, have one as a foster now. Also had one that was a bait dog. Love the bullies.
They have no other sound or reasonable ideas that will fix the overpopulation of pit bulls/pit bull types/pit bull crosses. Nor do they have any sound or reasonable ideas that will stop the number of attacks/maulings or deaths.
I’m not so convinced that neutering reduces aggression. I think there might be correlation between unaltered dogs and aggression but not convinced about the causation.
Most owners that are solidly in the “responsible” category still neuter their dogs by default principles. These proper, responsible owners are more likely to have better behaved, better adjusted dogs that are vastly less likely to get loose and run amok, attacking and biting. But is the neutering itself having this effect? Inconclusive.
Thoughts are changing in regards to neutering as an all positive, no-brainer thing to do thanks to new research on the effects on growth plates leading to ligament tears, and some cancers. That said, the stats regarding neutering and aggression may be less then informative and should be considered with a generous amount of salt.
Sswor, so you are dismissing that 84% of the dogs in dog bite fatalities that are not neutered aka intact male dogs. That IMO is a pretty compelling statistic. Plus spay and neuter will reduce the unwanted pet population. Here in my state in the south, there are many free “pit bull” type dog spay/neuter programs. In fact I just donated to one yesterday. So not only do I advocate for spay and neuter but I put my money where my mouth is.
I do hear you on the ligament tears, my big block head (95 lbs as a young big healthy dog) had both stifles repaired after he tore his ACL in both knees. That was before the research on the ligament issues/growth issues. Does not matter, he came from a high kill shelter and had to be neutered before we adopted him, which is how all rescues run. Dogs are altered (unless young puppies, though even some rescue do juvenile alteration) before they are adopted. It is the responsible thing to do.
As for neutering and aggression, well I have been around a JRT unaltered male when a female JRT was in heat. That little 15 lb snot would go after people, went after my GSD X. Nasty dog, until my GSD finally had enough and put some manners in him. My GSD was awesome with other dogs, not aggressive but would put a dog on their back in a heart beat that needed manners.
But a mandatory spay/neuter isn’t being enforced…and it needs to be. Paying lip service about something that isn’t being enforced and isn’t currently lessening attacks/deaths, is just that…lip service.
Not all neutering lessens physical aggression as a whole, while it can be relied on to lessen the population “if” the animals are spayed/neutered, there is absolutely no guarantee that it will stop the aggression of pit bulls.
Of that 84% of intact males that attacked, how many of them attacked because they were intact? Is there proof that the 84% intact wouldn’t have carried out their attacks if they had been fixed?
CT, yes I agree many spay neuter laws are not being enforced in some cases, but that is on AC not the general public. As I said, I put my money where my mouth is, donating to a rescue who does outreach to the community and helps the general public get their pets (especially the bullies) altered and I just donated to another fund that is being raised that monthly alters 40 bullies. How is that paying lip service? I am not AC, could not do that job, that is up to the communities who do have such laws to see that they are followed. I know my county has no such law.
I won’t go into the “stop the aggression of the pit bulls” because of the statistics found in the 10 yr study by JAVMA showed that there were 20 breeds and 2 mixed breeds that were the offending dogs in dog bite fatalities. Lets not forget Canada, in looking at their dog bite fatalities! Most dog bite fatalities are attributed to husky type or “northern” dogs and GSD types, not the “pit bull” types. So you have no leg to stand on there CT with your statement.
As for the stat that 84% that attacked were intact MALE dogs, that is pretty strong evidence that male dogs especially should be altered. That female dogs are much less likely to be involved in dog bite fatalities.
Speaking of stats–30 of the 35 people [or 85.7%]killed by dogs in 2015 were killed by pit bull/type dogs. How can you not be impressed by that statistic?
Ps. some fatal maulings involve 2 or more dogs of different breeds but in 85.7% of cases in 2015, at least one pit bull/type was involved in the fatal attack. I would not be surprised if most of these dogs were unaltered. It certainly doesn’t help.
Pps. perhaps the two stats consulted together provide an obvious answer as to targeted legislation that would prevent fatal maulings–regulate ownership of pit bull/types that includes mandatory neutering, licensing, etc.
Added, attempts to deflect blame from pit bull/types to unaltered dogs of all breed/types is, to me, over-reactive and grossly unfair. Everyone else is already dealing with the potential risk and added responsibilities of having one of these next door, why should the entire dog-owning public have to deal with further risk and regulation because the pit bull/type has an overpopulation and aggression issue? When are the pit bull/type people going to have to put some skin in the game?
Quote from Sswor: Speaking of stats–30 of the 35 people [or 85.7%]killed by dogs in 2015 were killed by pit bull/type dogs. How can you not be impressed by that statistic?
Where do you get this information? Dogsbite? Because again unless you have DNA or breed papers you CANNOT under any circumstances say 100% that the dogs are pit bull/pit bull types. Which is something you seem to be unable to grasp. Pit bull type is a group of dogs with genetic profile aka certain breeds, not based on looks. You cannot base your information on news reports or what you see on the internet. That is what the 10 yr long study aka research by JAVMA concluded, what any and all reputable study, research and credible organization (which dogsbite if far from being credible!) has concluded.
again quote from Sswor: Added, attempts to deflect blame from pit bull/types to unaltered dogs of all breed/types is, to me, over-reactive and grossly unfair. Everyone else is already dealing with the potential risk and added responsibilities of having one of these next door, why should the entire dog-owning public have to deal with further risk and regulation because the pit bull/type has an overpopulation and aggression issue?
I think I have quite thoroughly explained my position on BSLs and why they do not work and why targeting dogs based on their looks or their breed or type (again that genetic thing) is not useful in preventing dog bite fatalities. As has been shown by research after research world wide. You Sswor is the one who cannot grasp this concept.
I’m not quite sure - are you reading this thread? Or just misinterpreting things? I’m a little surprised at you, Thylacine… Granted, it’s a long thread, so you may have missed the numerous solutions provided as an alternative to BSL.
Dangerous dogs SHOULD be taken care of. Statewide/town-wide enforcements based on specific breeds does nothing to curb dangerous dogs.
BSL =/= dangerous dog laws. NO one is saying that dogs that are dangerous should not be handled. I am not for BSL. I am PRO dangerous dog laws. I am pro-neuter/spay, and have spent upwards of thousands of dollars spaying/neutering fosters.
a dog that is a danger to human life should be humanely euthanized. period.
uhh… WHAT?! You DON’T think neutering reduces aggression in most dogs?! then why the F do we neuter anything anyway? stallions? dogs? cats? we sure as heck don’t do it to control the population…
I know you don’t do studies, but here’s one anyway:
Ben and Hart at the University of California carried out one of the most extensive surveys on the effects of gonadectomy on dogs, finding that at least in intermale aggression, aggression was reduced by neutering in 60% of cases with rapid reduction in 25%, and gradual reduction in 35% (Fogle, 1990, p. 53). Neilson, Eckstein, and Hart, (1997) found that approximately 25% of adult dogs that were aggressive toward humans or other dogs in the household can be expected to have a 50 to 90% level of improvement after gonadectomy.A 50 - 90% level of improvement can likewise be observed in 10 to 15% of dogs that are aggressive toward unfamiliar people or human territorial intruders after gonadectomy. Neilson et al. also found that neither the age at which the gonadectomy was performed or the duration the problem behavior existed for affected the behavior after gonadectomy. Hart and Eckstein (1997) performed a review of the research and literature on the effects of gonadal hormones on objectionable behavior. They relay that gonadectomy affects sexually dimorphic behaviors and that aggression toward other dogs and “dominance over owner” are particularly sexually dimorphic.
So yes, while neutering is not a 100% failsafe in eliminating all aggressive behavior, it is certainly helpful in many cases and as noted by the study, has impacted aggression in male dogs. It’s why males were neutered in the first place.
It is NOT a coincidence that intact male dogs are the perpetrator of over 80% of fatal attacks. Anyone who has handled a stallion would understand that an intact male is very, very different than a neutered one. But… carry on…
Exactly, your county has no such law. It is up to the community of each county to take a stand and have their county enforce mandatory spay/neuter. I realize what you’re doing is being somewhat helpful for your area, but until there are strict and mandatory laws , you’re like a bunch of keystone cops running around while more attacks/deaths are happening.
Hmmmm…Ontario created a pit bull BSL because huskies and GSD’s were the main offenders in the bites, maulings and deaths, are you sure about that? You are so intent on sticking up for your cause that you are getting your information mixed up because of your bias. Of course there is a higher bite/death number caused by huskies in the north…that is basically the only dog that lives there. With all of your research, how many huskies/GSD’s bit/caused maulings or deaths in Ontario vs the pit bulls? The numbers were included in one of the links that have been provided several times in the past.
Out of your “20 breeds and 2 mixed breeds” which dog out of those 20 breeds had the highest number of bites/maulings and deaths combined?
I don’t disagree that any male dog should be neutered, neutering/spaying will create a more placid dog, especially around breeding season. What I was saying is that you have absolutely no proof that the 84% of intact dogs that attacked, wouldn’t have attacked if they had been neutered. An aggressive dog is an aggressive dog, being neutered does not deplete the personality traits of a dog. My shepherd was neutered and that alone would not have stopped any actions to do with his strong breed instincts.
so the “higher population = correlation with higher incidence of attacks” works for YOUR argument against PBs, but when we’ve pointed that very same issue out many. many times over this thread, it does not hold water?
you are wrong - it is not “basically the only dog that lives there” … it is one of many breed types that are popular there. it is not the most popular or the most bepopulate dog, not by a long margin.
I appreciate that you agree that neutering is paramount, but just wish that you would take the time to read the many studies and evidence presented your way.
[I]28.9% of the incidences occurred when the dog was tied to a chain;[/I]
[I]76.2% of the incidences involved a resident dog (a resident dog was defined as one which basically was kept in the yard therefore lacking the quality of human social contact afforded dogs classified as a family dog);[/I]
[I]78% of the dogs were owned for over 90 days;[/I]
[I]65% of the dogs were kept outside either in a fenced yard, loose in an unfenced yard, roaming or in a pan, or on a chain;[/I]
[I]37% of the incidences involved mismanagement by the owner. Mismanagement by the owner was that the owner allowed the dog to be a danger to others due to the fact that the dog had been involved in previous bite incidences or had been running at large;[/I]
[I]66% of the dogs had been neglected or abused by the owner. Neglect and abuse by the owner was defined as incidences in which the dog was not given access to shelter, food, water or shade, dogs with untreated medical condition,, a dog used for fighting, sexually abused or beaten;[/I]
[I]37% of the incidences there was evidence indicating that the owner caretaker knew about the dangerous propensities in the dog or that the dog had a history of running loose;[/I]
[I]87% of the instances involved a male dog, and in most instances (84%) the dog or dogs involved were reproductively intact;[/I]
[I]No breed or breed-type was disproportionately associated with any of the above mentioned factors.[/I]
[I]The above is directly quoted from your link.
Time and time again, proof that irresponsible ownership has and continues to cause the problem. A problem that has grown grossly out of control. Repeated attempts of educating and offering free/low cost neuter/spay is not working…people are still being killed. If you can’t reduce the number of bites/maulings/deaths by approaching individual dog owners…you design and “enforce” a strict and mandatory blanket law. That does work.[/I]
Just because dogsbite isn’t 100% accurate, doesn’t mean that much of it isn’t accurate. All of the research links you have supplied can also be questioned for accuracy, research is disproven on a regular basis.
When a fatality caused by a dog happens the dog is taken into custody and a registered/certified vet identifies the dog with their experience and expertise. I would think that without doing a DNA test, the majority of vets can identify a dog that has at least some percent of pit bull cross in them. Personally I would love to see DNA tests of killer dogs become mandatory in the investigations. Then the proof would be there with no room for complain about how they’re identified.
I do not believe I have ever disagreed that there are a high number of attacks by pit bulls because there are a lot of pit bulls. Saying that does not take away from the fact that if there were a lower number of pit bulls that fatalities would still be higher on the list by these dogs.
The husky/malamute has been a long standing favourite of the far north. There are few dogs that can physically withstand and thrive in that type of weather. If you have proof stating otherwise I would like to see it.
Ben and Hart at the University of California carried out one of the most extensive surveys on the effects of gonadectomy on dogs, finding that at least in intermale aggression, aggression was reduced by neutering in 60% of cases with rapid reduction in 25%, and gradual reduction in 35% (Fogle, 1990, p. 53).
What about the other 40%? What about dogs that show aggression other then intermale aggression? You could conclude there was little or no difference after neutering in these dogs. As we can see by reading further.
Neilson, Eckstein, and Hart, (1997) found that approximately 25% of adult dogs that were aggressive toward humans or other dogs in the household can be expected to have a 50 to 90% level of improvement after gonadectomy.
And the other 75%?? Little to no change is suggested.
A 50 - 90% level of improvement can likewise be observed in 10 to 15% of dogs that are aggressive toward unfamiliar people or human territorial intruders after gonadectomy.
And the other 85-90%?? Little to no change.
Neutering is no silver bullet. I’d argue that training is. Same with stallions. But training is hard. Cutting off testicles is easy, and we all know people like easy fixes, even when they don’t really work.
