This is why you need to take the dominant mare in hand. She needs to be subordinate to you.
Stop trying to catch your submissive horse and lead her away first! You continually post as though the problem is with the under mare. It absolutely is not. The under mare will only behave for you when you show her that you can keep the dominant mare at bay.
You can still ride them together. Being kept separate doesnāt mean you canāt ride them together. When I feed my two their senior feed. I have to separate them. Otherwise they play switch feed pans.
Mine get along fairly well ,but there are times they push each other around. When hay bale gets almost gone older gelding gets ornery. Kicks/ bites at other gelding & wont let him eat.
When I take feed out ,they wait by their pans no fighting going on, when Iām out with them.
I have 3. Getting rid of 1 will still leave me w 2 but I would be replacing the other. (The mini is also in w the undermare)
and yes, thatās why Iāve asked this question. I have asked the only experienced people I know and they donāt understand the behaviour.
when she is in the field alone sheās very submissive and works beautifully. But yes, I agree she is the one w the issue. I know itās not the under mare, i am just mainly more concerned with her as sheās been with 3 or so different horses and never had a personality change like she did within moments of being w this horseā¦ Before the 1st blow up.
This course has lead me to talk with 3 trainers which also called trainers and some friends talked to their trainers. And they all have very different advice. And nearly all have said they hadnāt ever had a case like this. Iāve sent videos to them also. Some have said tieing them near eachother and just leaving them for a few hours as I keep watch, walking them together, staying out there and stopping a blow up when it happens (but out of 6 days it happened twice and never was over food or anything that could determine when it would happen again), there are other suggestions including selling and buying a gelding instead.
If it was food that caused the issue I would be prepared for it and could correct it. Both times have had no food involved. All 3 eat together fine. If Iām out there no food bowl switch. If i walk away they will play the bowl switch game.
It is not feed as said above. It is being in a space where she can not get away.
Correct. And there is space to get away but she puts herself in the corners which are wooden and the other takes advantage when that happens. Just like when she was all the way down the hill and saw my mare in the corner up on the hill She ran up and pushed her all the way back in the corner and started kicking. It doesnāt matter if itās 3 acres of 15. There would still be a cornerā¦ in most of the corners I can round them out and that would help there.
the size of the space really shouldnāt be the issue.
Can you not change the fencing a bit to make it more convenient to care for them separately? The thing about your small mare is that she is a bully. She will take the opportunity to make your mares life a living he## anytime she chooses. I donāt care how open your field is.
In areas of feeding and shelter are the worst places . I imagine that your smaller mare has finally gotten the chance to be the herd boss since your mare is so submissive. The problem is her need to bully the others and it will not stop until she is put in her place by another horse again.
She would be the 1 to sell and I wouldnāt put the mini in with her, ever!
I possibly could. I guess Iām just not convinced that if she canāt play fair and live in harmony here that she needs to stay here. It just seems unfair to my mare not to have a full size horse buddy and for this mean one to be alone since she canāt be nice here but wasnāt an issue in the home before.
and thatās the info Iām looking forā¦ if the majority says she will never play fairā¦ why waste my money on more training when that training wonāt help the situation at hand which is kicking another through the fence for no reason that I can see lol
if it stays seperate like that. I will have to go buy some gates and redo fence lines so we can actually get in this other pasture. So itās not just convinced. Itās practicality.
Iām sitting here watching all or them in the pasture having to be seperate and look over at my neighbors 4 horses that are chilling w eachother. Just makes me a bit sad.
Some horses can be best buddies while being ridden together or sharing a fence line but cannot live in the same pasture. If this is the worst thing about this mare and she rides like a dream and is a pleasure in every other way I would not sell her.
If they share a fence they have companionship.
Some horses will just not get along, no matter how much you force it. They do have different personalities (ie dominant, submissive, middle of the pack) and you have got yourself a dominant one here. Unfortunately you donāt have another dominant one to keep her in her placeāyou have a submissive mare who is going to get hurt because she wonāt fight back.
I have found through my years of working in barns and arranging horse turnout herds that there are different types of dominant/herd leaders as well . . some are benevolent leaders who donāt need to use physical intimidation to lead. . . these are the best heard leaders/boss mares because they are respected and everyone is happy. Top dog comes in first, picks the hay pile, etc but allows all the other horses to eat/access the troughs etc. They almost watch over their herd and take responsibility for everyone.
Then you have those that lead by intimidating and beating up other horses. I am interested in you saying that this dominant mare was turned out alone for several years. . . because I have found the most āmeanā dominant horses are ones that didnāt get a ton of opportunity to socialize with other horses and are now finding themselves in a social situation. They donāt want to be bottom of the barrel so they fight with the other horses to be top dog. These types are much harder to find a workable turnout group for because the other horses with them could very well get hurt when they are trying to work things out. As you have so few horses to choose from in turns of making different turnout groups, you may just not have a compatible set of equines here.
OP, I have been in a similar situation where I turned two of my horses out together and had issues with them some time later.
Either horse would come up to the gate willingly if only one of them was out at the time. No issues with catching them. When both were out and I came to the gate things were fine at first but then after a period of time, the dominant one would try to chase the submissive one away and bite it.
What I did was carry a dressage whip with me and when the dominant one tried to chase the other one away, it got a sharp whack. I did this while I was on the other side of the fence so there was minimal probability of me getting caught in the scuffle. After a couple of times the dominant one stopped this behavior and now both come up to the fence and there are no issues.
Treating horses ālovinglyā doesnāt always work. Although there is a time and place for that, it is also important to be firm at the appropriate time and this is one of those times.
That gives me a lot of hope! I really would love foe them to work it out together. Yes I totally agree with loving. Iām totally not opposed to a whack. I have 2 whips but need to carry it with me as never have them w me when there has been an issue.
Iām so excited for the trainer to come tomorrow and watch. Sheās going to work w each solo and then put them togetherā¦ we will see!
The only thing you can try is to feed up the submissive horse until they feel more dominant. That works with some horses, not with others. Other than that, āYou can not train them what to do when unsupervised.ā Which is why I said the dominant mare can never have a go at the submissive horse when in your eyesight. When unsupervised all bets are off.
Donāt bet on them getting along after trainer works with them. The dominant mare might always be over other mare and feel the need, to kick corner other mare.
Had a gelding who would go after the submissive horseās. He would go out of his way to bite kick at other horseās. Sometimes there would be hide taken off other horse.
Old guy I have now is totally over younger gelding been lots of chasing going on. Younger gelding has to wait his turn to eat hay. Old guy pins ears and gives the stink eye other gelding backs off. He learned better move or you get bit or kicked. Old guy was pretty laid back didnāt care but now heās turned into the herd boss.
Trainer came today. It was very nice to watch her work with them both and teach me some new tips. I have homework to do and she will come back next week.
The area where the scuffles happened are near where I feed and her bowl is the furthest out of pasture so the closest to the gates and barn. Hard to describe but basically both areas where she was kicked are in the proximity of āherā food bowl. So when my mare would come up to either gate, she would have to pass leadmares food bowl. We put them in the pasture at the hay bales. Both were relaxed. No issue. Brought them to this area and you could feel their anxiety level. We tied the leadmare in this area and walked my mare around until both chilled out and didnāt cause issue.
the other area that was causing issues was were we fed the leadmare in the seperate area before combining So somehow she claimed both of these areas as her own and didnāt want to share.
by the end both horses were relaxed, calm and enjoyed eachother company.
we are keeping them both separately while we continue to get some ground work and fix some other issues.
obviously a lot more happened during the session.
the move back together will be a very slow process if that happens but right now I feel a lot more peace and hopeful 
OK, but the under mareās personality change has to do with the dominant mare.
And I think the dominant mare being submissive to you and working beautifully in a field by herself is maybe 50% of the amount of submission you need.
The dominant mare-- one that will run in from elsewhere in a large field to corner and kick repeatedly at another horse-- is one with a very, very big ego. (In this case, you are the resource they are fighting over. Dominant mare sees under mare getting something she wants, so she comes into fight for what she thinks if properly hersā¦ and she goes overboard about it, or she keeps kicking because the undermare canāt leave and give up her claim on you.)
If this mare were mine, Iād get Even Bigger than she was until she believed that I was God-- all-powerful and all-seeing. I would require her to behave for me when we were alone in a field, but also when I was there with the under mare. Iād control the space among the three of us. And Iād get on her case at the slightest infraction. A bitchy look at the under mare would incur my wrath. But Iād be immediately fair and pleasant, too. The dominant mare should be able to earn softness or hardness from me in a consistent way, and such that she gets to control how much Iām easy-going or quite hard. I need to be able to match the degree of challenge she issues. But luckily for us, most horses, most of the time just try their hand at looking tough and will back down if you come back immediately looking even more ferocious, and then everything gets peaceful again after these short challenges.
Thatās all very nice to say, but actually getting this done with your three horses and some combination of equipment and space leaves out a lot of the details required. You really need an expert horseman to come help you read the horsesā body-language and the situation as itās going on. And with a mare so tough that sheās making repeated hits on another horse, this isnāt a beginnerās horse to start learning this on. That said, you might be surprised how fast she can come around when sheās really, really sure that you are the Top Mare of everyone for now and at all times.
That is true, too. A truly expert horseman and the right horses can sometimes bring down the ego size of the super-dominant horse and bring up the ego-size of the timid one. Usually, the second has better odds. But really, thatās asking a lot. Thatās assuming that you can change a horseās psychology so much that he continues to see himself when you are not there the same way that he did for the relatively short amount of time each day that you did spend with him. And so SuzieQNutter is right-- assume that when they are unsupervised, their herd dynamics will go back to what they are.
That said, sometimes giving dominant mare a hard and complicated job can help. Some smart, strong-willed horses suffer from frustration from being bored and they take it out on their herd mates.
I should add that if you feed up the under mare then as you are inexperienced you may start having trouble with her too.
More than one feed bowl so as one can not claim them both as hers is what was said at the start. The bowls need to be way away from each other.
If the hay field is next door. Separate. No need for 2 of everything. It means less feed bowls as you only need 2.
The horses can still share a water trough under the fence. They can still share a shelter with a safe fence like a stallion divider in between. They can take turns in the bigger paddock if you want.
I would say start working on your fencing.
Am I the only one who thinks this is NOT something you will change with ground work? You might keep her from beating up the submissive horse while you are around but when they are alone and in those areas that cause the problem, it is all up to the attitude of the boss mare as to what happens.
If you can completely change the area you feed grain and tie them and feed and then remove the feed tubs or buckets until the next feeding you may have better results.
This has everything to do with the boss mare and her need to not only dominate but be brutal in the process. This might lessen over time as she feels more secure in her status. Usually all it takes is a look or even for the boss to come toward those under her and they get out of the way pronto.
Get rid of the places she can be hemmed up and you have a better chance of success.
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