Mare, Gelding or stallion for the top of the sport?

[andy.smaga]

Most of the time I was lucky buying a stallion for the sport and most of the time I failed buying a mare for the sport.
So I decided to look at some objective numbers to find out what is the reality of the gender choice in the success at the top of the sport.
I was surprised to find that only 22 mares make it in the top 100 horses (ranked by WBFSH out of data by FEI) they rank about 4000 horses.
I imagine that the mares represent 50% of all horses born, and I was expecting to find a number closer to 50…

Because I buy young entire (age 2 or 3y/o) that you can geld if they are not competitive under saddle, then this tells me that buying an entire gives 4 times more chances to get it at the top of the sport compared to buying a mare.

Something wrong with my assumptions?
What’s your ideas? Comments?

FYI: 44 Geldings and 34 Stallions in the top 100.

[Sonesta]

I think the numbers are misleading, because in Europe breeders tend to keep their best mares for breeding and do not risk them in the show ring.

[_Tradewind]

One question I would have would be: what proportion of mares are actually put into sport? If really high quality mares that possess the most desirable type and qualities for breeding are put straight into the breeding shed because this is where their greatest value lies, they will not have the opportunity to prove themselves in sport at the highest levels. If this is true, the number of mares out competing for those top rankings would be less than 50% of the overall number and consequently, one would expect to see a lower rate of successful mares as compared to geldings and stallions.

[Perfect_Pony]

@Sonesta;6022942

I think the numbers are misleading, because in Europe breeders tend to keep their best mares for breeding and do not risk them in the show ring.

I would have to think the numbers are skewed by a lot of things. I know very few people at any level of the sport in any horse sport that looks for or wants a mare. What else will you do with the boys? If it is nice enough to keep a stallion most people spend at least some time “proving” it. If it’s gelded, well it’s useless except to ride, so you ride it. I would say that by pure numbers many more stallions/geldings get a chance at succeeding at sport. Most mares simply aren’t even given the chance. The really nice ones are often bred, the ones that don’t really shine early on are given up on…

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=Sonesta;6022942]
I think the numbers are misleading, because in Europe breeders tend to keep their best mares for breeding and do not risk them in the show ring.[/QUOTE]

Oops, posting at the same time, Sonesta. Great minds think alike!

[dressurpferd01]

[QUOTE=Perfect Pony;6022961]
I would have to think the numbers are skewed by a lot of things. I know very few people at any level of the sport in any horse sport that looks for or wants a mare. What else will you do with the boys? If it is nice enough to keep a stallion most people spend at least some time “proving” it. If it’s gelded, well it’s useless except to ride, so you ride it. I would say that by pure numbers many more stallions/geldings get a chance at succeeding at sport. Most mares simply aren’t even given the chance. The really nice ones are often bred, the ones that don’t really shine early on are given up on…[/QUOTE]

Respectfully, I disagree. I know several people, myself being one of them, that prefer mares any day of the week, and twice on Sunday. Stallions, I simply don’t seem to get along with, and have desire to deal with 1200 lbs of testosterone. Geldings, well, they’re usually steady, but don’t have the fire a good mare will.

The saying I live by: a gelding will give you 50%, 100% of the time. A mare will give you 100%, 50% of the time. I’d rather get 100% half the time, than 50% all the time.

[Perfect_Pony]

@dressurpferd01;6023139

Respectfully, I disagree. I know several people, myself being one of them, that prefer mares any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

I am one of them too, but I am nobody, well at least not taking a horse to the top of the sport. I’m dreaming of second level before I die.

Being a “mare person” I am the first to admit that the majority of people I have met at every single level of the sport do not want a mare. They are harder to sell, most ammys don’t want one, and not what most professionals I have met would want to invest their time in developing given the choice.

[ponygirl]

I actually know a number pros at top of sport in show jumping who like geldings the least. Some say that a great mare cannot be beaten. Not a good mare but a great mare.

[Sonesta]

Show jumping riders seem to have discovered the value of good mares for their sport. 20-30 years ago you seldom saw a mare in showjumping. Now, their are quite a lot of them.

I, too, prefer mares. It takes longer to establish a relationship with a mare, but once you do they will give you all they’ve got and then some.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Perfect Pony;6023159]
I am one of them too, but I am nobody, well at least not taking a horse to the top of the sport. I’m dreaming of second level before I die.

Being a “mare person” I am the first to admit that the majority of people I have met at every single level of the sport do not want a mare. They are harder to sell, most ammys don’t want one, and not what most professionals I have met would want to invest their time in developing given the choice.[/QUOTE]

I think mares are a lot easier to sell. I sell primarily to pros and very good (PSG+) ammies, fwiw, and have sold all my fillies to performance homes.

[Equilibrium]

Mares for definite. As stated the reasons you will see few top mares at the highest level of sport isn’t because they aren’t capable but usually because they have gone to the breeding shed long before. You have a mare from a good pedigree who has successfully done a MPT and or hit the 1.30 level or done very well in the age classes so you breed from her. If stallions could not breed and be competed at the same time then you’d see a lot more geldings. ET is available but not very simple and very expensive.

So the statistics I’m afraid only tell part of the story. There are some riders you’d give a mare to and some you wouldn’t. If I send out a mare for jumping again they will have a proven track record with mares. Don’t care what they do with geldings and stallions.

In racing in which generally you are proving yourself for racing, the good mares were amazing animals. They would always give you more than the colts.

Terri

[Perfect_Pony]

@YankeeLawyer;6023429

I think mares are a lot easier to sell. I sell primarily to pros and very good (PSG+) ammies, fwiw, and have sold all my fillies to performance homes.

Well I am glad yours are easy to sell, you obviously breed nice mares, invest in performance careers of your mares, and have good contacts and people who like mares seek you out.

I wonder what you think the reason is that there are so few at the top of sport then? Are the majority of them just inferior to stallions and geldings?

My comments come from years of being a “mare person” (since training my first one at the age of 13). Over the past 30 years I have gotten countless negative comments from people and trainers alike about mares. I have met loads of people that refuse to buy a mare. I have also known plenty of trainers who either don’t like, cannot get along with, or even refuse to have one in training. I have yet to personally meet a trainer who would refuse a gelding based on his sex.

[EquineLVR]

I prefer mares myself… which means nothing as I have never been to the top of the sport and for some reason I keep ending up with geldings…

However the mares I have had were expceptional and as many have mentioned will give their all once the relationship is established.

[vineyridge]

I think that some countries are less willing to invest in performance careers for mares that get them to the very highest levels. I can think of a large number of German show jumping mares, but very few French ones.

[fordtraktor]

Might be a biased sample, I’d imagine/hope that the breeding forum would like mares.

Personally, I don’t care. I’ve had great geldings and great mares, and have ridden great stallions.

My favorite is the one that is the most careful and brave with a terrific hind end. I could care less what private parts it has. I don’t believe in statements like “mares have more heart” or “geldings are dull” or “stallions have more fire” or whatever. I just don’t believe you can generalize like that, any more than “TBs are hot” or “WBs are stupid” is true.

But to be sure, I am not at the top of the sport.

My two best horses have been of different genders. Though I am pretty sure my best gelding was transgendered, so maybe I am a mare person. He is the prissiest thing alive, no kidding.

[Tasker]

I’m with fordtraktor on this one. A good horse is a good horse regardless of the gender.

We had an FEI mare who had European judges chastising my parents that she was ‘wasted’ in the show ring. shrug She loved to show - bigger the crowd, the better she would go. We did eventually breed her at 16 and her descendants are the same…

[andy.smaga]

I’m stating facts, I’m not saying mares are inferior.

The ones saying that mares go to the breeding shed as soon as they hit the 130 classes, is not valid when you consider the top of the sport, because a mare that have the potential to go to the top will be doing ET because the costs will be offset by selling the offspring of such a mare.

Viney, from those 22 mares 3 are SF, 2 Holsteiners, 5 BWP, 4 KWPN, 2 AES, 1 Hanoverian, 2 Bavarian, 1 ISH, 1 Zang. I don’t think the SF breeders are keeping their mares out of the competition ring more than German breeders.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Sonesta;6023361]
Show jumping riders seem to have discovered the value of good mares for their sport. 20-30 years ago you seldom saw a mare in showjumping. Now, their are quite a lot of them.

I, too, prefer mares. It takes longer to establish a relationship with a mare, but once you do they will give you all they’ve got and then some.[/QUOTE]

Agree… with ET now an option there are more very talented mares in sport, but still the majority of that quality are being used in breeding exclusively. Some breeders may not want to go with ET but have the mares raise the foals themselves.

[Perfect_Pony]

People really aren’t answering the question. Yes, a great mare is a great sporthorse. Yes a few people actually do prefer them. But why are there so few at the top of sport (compared to stallions/geldings?)

I still maintain it just a simple bias, fewer people/trainers look to them to be their next top mount. I think this bias skews the numbers somewhat. Combine that with more good mares being retained as broodmares and not being invested in, and you see why there are fewer.

And ET is expensive. Yes those mares that people invest in and that people take a chance on will be bred via ET, but IMO it is only reserved for very special mares.

[Beentheredonethat]

I think that there are so few because, as said, the good ones get put to breeding, and the mythology, in this country anyway, that a lot of less good riders have that they aren’t as good.

I think the statistics on the World Cup for show jumping is that the most likely horse to win is a Holsteiner mare. I think for show jumping and eventing there is probably less prejudice, or none.

I think some of it is the amateur attitude a lot of people seem to have that you have to have a dead calm horse, at least in dressage. These are the kind of people in the sport who never leave the ring, would never consider a gallop on the trail or jumping, or doing anything fun with the horse. A lot of the sport caters to these people, and a lot of trainers make the most money off of these people.

I prefer mares. As said, they tend to give 100% or nothing. You don’t get the super steadiness that may win at the lower levels, but you have the fire and brilliance that can do well at the upper levels. The first horse I bred was a mare and I took her to GP. She could be a pain in the ass and would just randomly explode and fling herself about, then get back to work. In her pasture she would do her daily runs and speed in circles while all the other horses stared at her. She was also jaw dropping in the ring. Chelsey (Sibley) used to ride a jaw dropping mare that was spectacular. She did NOT take her to young riders, but chose a less spectacular, but steadier gelding because Chaam would have similar episodes.

There are definitely a lot more mares now at the top of the sport in dressage, but because of the stress on dead on steady horses, I think if it makes that much difference to win at the very top, people go for the gelding. Anky rides stallions, but the geldings have done better. Ravel was apparently an easier ride after gelding. The top riders I know looking for Olympic dressage mounts tend not to go for mares, though maybe below that level of what you want to do doesn’t matter.