Well, RileyT, I’m not answering your original question. Instead, I’m addressing someone who took a potshot at you. Yes, you should take BB advice with some level of skepticism; on the other hand, there are some knowledgeable people posting. Furthermore, I really take issue with the person who criticized you for soliciting help. I applaud you for seeking help. No single instructor has the solution to absolutely every problem, and your willingness to acknowledge that you don’t know and would like advice tells me that you really care about your students, their horses, and getting to the bottom of this problem. Bravo and don’t give up just because of a few silly posts.
I thought of this while reading the suggestion of the chambon. Does this mare respond to poll pressure from the ground? If not, try going back to basics on that to see if you can get her to lower her head by either putting your hand on her poll (NOT pushing), or by putting light pressure on a lead rope - a method that John Lyons teaches. If you can get her constistently and immediately responding to that sort of pressure, you should be able to start translating that into under-saddle work.
I too disagree with pulling a horse into a frame with draw reins. But color me a convert. I too worked with 15 yr old ex-polo pony. Can you say stick horse for a neck. Draw reins really helped define “the range”. I did not pull him down, but rather had them only short enough that when he was way upside down, he would hit them, I still asked him to come forward, and he would reward himself when he came down.
It took quite some time of a lot of transitions, and changes of direction, but we got better eventually.
Another serious consideration is that because they have been allowed to go upside down for so long, then do not have the topline to enable them to carry themselves through the back. It is painful and virtually impossible. It too takes development. Side reins on the lunge for short periods of time, large circles, encourage to go forward helps find the bit.
I even resorted to them on my 3 yr TB. He had such trouble staying on the bit, and we didn’t want him to develop the wrong muscles through his back and the under neck, we used the same theory. It was against my principles, but again I am a convert. I will attempt to post a picture from a year ago. You can see how I am attempting to not be on the draw rein. He was 4 at this time. Now 5(legal 6).
I considered them training wheels. He is now out of the training wheels and can come through his back very nicely, when I am with the program.
http://chronofhorse.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic/bud99_2%2Ejpg?s=691099205&a=ga&ul=942096886
I think someone here needs to go over to the H/J “Girls Only” post and discuss their “issues.” Maybe it’ll help them gain some perspective and find a reason for their cutting reply.
pwynnnorman - I think this mare was a polo pony for quite some time… although she was owned by another rider in between polo and coming to my barn. The mare is really pretty sweet, and laid back for a ex-polo pony, but she will not trust people with her mouth. We’ve been trying to encourage her to just go forward and stretch for several months now, but I’m really not getting any indication that she’s even thinking about coming down. I may try the side reins on the longe, figuring, she may be more receptive to the idea without a rider. (P.S., her rider is no Olmpian, but has very stong basics, a good seat, and is VERY gentle with her hands) So I don’t think that her current owner is the problem, I think the mare has just been hauled around by the mouth so much in the past that she’s not willing to trust (and, to complicate matters, she now has many years of “inverted” muscling to contend with). Maybe we’ll try the side reins for very short periods and see if we can give her the idea. Thanks for your suggestions
that I think the problem MAY be beyond the posters (or anybody’s) abilities because it is a polo pony. I think they are far, far tougher than OTTBs because they’ve learned to tolerate SOOO MUCH.
Then, too, has anyone considered a physical problem here yet (I might have missed someone’s statement). I must admit that I honestly don’t think that anything that “pulls” the horse’s head down is going to solve this particular animal’s problem.
If there are any polo players in your area, I’d sure suggest talking to them if you have no experience with that nature of training polo ponies. I spent a lot of time at Cornell watching the trainer there and have been around polo, here and there, a bit. What they do is sometimes pretty “far out” from an American perspective (since a lot of popular technique are Argentinian) and I think you might need to take that into account when it comes to managing this mare.
I seriously, seriously doubt that ANYTHING you attach to her mouth is going to have the desired effect. And even the leg aids used can be so vastly different than what you’d imagine that communicating effectively to her may be a daunting task.
In fact, a hackamore in combination with chambon, sidereins, drawreins, gogue or whatever might be worth experimenting with. Use a part of her that hasn’t been calloused over by a lifetime of polo!
Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
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I always like to first make quite sure that there are no teeth problems,Iwould also get my chiropracter[equine] to check them out before I went any further with them,even the most honest horses cant work well if in pain.
fernie fox
I was just at H/J reading velvet and rileyt commenting on this post. I had not followed up here since early am. Why did I know exactly who you two were referring to regarding a “ripping” post?
Just had to come here to confirm my suspicions. Does take it with a grain of salt mean anything to you all?
velvet, that would be a giant MEEEOOOWWWW!!!
I would believe this would be the case in point of why this BB is not as interesting, or inviting.
instructors charge a great deal of money for lessons. they need to be able to have effective solutions for the student’s problem, especially problems that involve safety and control, like this one.
if they do not know how to handle a problem or it is above them they should tell the student and send them to another trainer. i am not a pro but a student and i would be petrified and very upset and feel ripped off if my instructor sought answers for my training questions on a public forum. i would expect her to say she couldn’t handle the problem and send me elsewhere.
this indeed HAS happened to me. the instructor told me she didn’t know how to solve a problem and we sought outside help. it deepened my respect for the instructor and i stayed with her after the outside consult. the problem appeared to be that the horse was having a seizure while being ridden. veterinarians and several other trainers got involved.
sorry to cause so much outrage, and i understand all the criticism, but i stand fast on this one. i feel very strongly about this. instructors need to have help sometimes - it is no shame to admit it and send a student elsewhere. what is a shame is when this is not done.
Please,please get a good chiropractor[equine]to look at your mare,polo ponies can be exposed to some pretty barbaric training methods.She sounds very honest from your comments.I’m pretty sure you will be surprised at the results.Please let us know how she gets on.Some of my favorite’‘projects’'where retraining polo ponies and horses off the track.Sadly for them, the polo ponies had far more structural damage than any others,but with good care ended up being the most obliging guys.
fernie fox
How good are the riders seats? How steady is their contact? Do they throw the horse away too easily? Do they “pull” instead of “follow” with their contact? It’s always the rider who perpetuates the problem. A good rider with clear aids and steady hands can reschool these horses without any tools, but a more green rider would probably benefit from a tool, such as draw reins, when used in moderation and only to help teach them that they can get the horse round and keep a soft contact. Once they are convinced and know how to time their aids to get the horse to step through and into the contact, then they can remove the draw reins and seek the same “feel.” That’s the only reason for using draw reins…to educate create more confidence in a rider and help them find the feel. The horse would do it without the draw reins and a different rider.
JMHO
I’ve had similar problems learning to ride my mare. And I’ve used or still use almost all of the things suggested. My mare was used to being ridden in fairly loose side reins which limited the amount she could raise her head. I tried draw reins for a while, but wasn’t a skilled enough rider to keep her pushed up to the bit, so she leaned on the draw reins and trailed her hind legs out behind. I tried them again later with more success. Probably the easiest and the things I’ve used the most are transitions and small circles. I rarely even ride all the way down the long side of the arena and I can’t remember the last time I rode a long diagonal. I do lots of ten meter circles either across the ring or sometimes just along a long side. I also do serpentines, sometimes just between the quarterlines and sometimes all the way across the arena. Another thing I haven’t tried but someone else in our dressage barn used with a green horse was a running martingale. Again it was adjusted fairly loosely but set some limit on how high he could lift his head.
My struggle is no longer as difficult as your students’ appear to be, but I’m continually working on it. I was somewhat lucky in that the mare knows more than me and much of our struggle has been me catching up to her and convincing her that I have a few more skills than I did before.
Good luck.
Just to clarify… I HAVE sent students to other trainers when they outgrow me, or have a problem that I can’t help with, and I do bring outside pros in to do clinics, or help with certain problems. But I usually do this only when I feel like I have a certain horse or problem that my usualy methods are not working with. Part of what I love about teaching and the horse business, is that I have been doing this for over 20 years, and I still get horses who have problems/issues that are new, or a variation on an old problem where traditional methods are not working. As long as I am in my comfortable range of expertise, what is wrong with asking for opinions? I think your idea that you should ship students off to someone else at the first sign of trouble is not only unreasonable, but not ultimately in the student’s best interest. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and just as I might privately seek advice from other professionals that I respect, what is so different from using the BB and opening it up to discussion? I think your approach encourages trainers to pretend like they know more than they do. I am secure enough in my teaching methods and knowledge, that asking for opinions does not threaten me… I make an independent evaluation of the advice I get here… and I make a decision as to whether its worth pursuing, because, after all, I am the only one who really knows this particular horse and rider. You are entitled to your opinion.
My precious Elliot did something in the crossties and ended up facing the other direction, with his neck and head all askew.
I had the chiro come out asap and adjust his neck, but several weeks later, I unwittingly allowed a trainer to borrow him.
They worked him rather hard, they apologetically told me, and two days later his neck was in agony.
I had the Massage Therapist and then the Vet come work on him, and he is doing much better now.
I am also massaging the neck and doing “carrot stretches” side to side.
Just in case I also had the Vet look at his teeth and do his annual dental. Teeth were fine, but it is a good idea to have that all checked if you are having problems, with high head carriage. 
have the horse put his head down first. forget about the contact for a bit - get the head down.
to get the head down, one way is break up the stiffness in the neck by bending. this is very hard to do without creating other problems, and takes a lot of skill and is nothing for an inexperienced, overwhelmed student to be doing - and in some cases it is not the right thing to do and one has to simply ride and leave the head position alone for a time - to go even farther, with these cases some days the right thing to do is to bend and on other days the right thing to do is to leave it alone - this is with the same horse, i’m saying.
i hate to say so but it also sounds like it’s beyond your abilities. i’d urge you to get another instructor involved who has lengthy experience with these matters.
sorry to be blunt, but as an instructor it is not ethical for you to do this. you should not be seeking advice on how to solve a problem of two paying customers from a bulletin board, where the participants vary greatly in knowledge and skill and understanding and sympathy, and have never seen you, the horse or the rider. please don’t do this.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>slc
Member
Registered: Jan. 04, 2000
Posts: 713
head up
have the horse put his head down first. forget about the contact for a bit - get the head down.
to get the head down, one way is break up the stiffness in the neck by bending. this is very hard to do without creating other problems, and takes a lot of skill and is nothing for an inexperienced, overwhelmed student to be doing - and in some cases it is not the right thing to do and one has to simply ride and leave the head position alone for a time - to go even farther, with these cases some days the right thing to do is to bend and on other days the right thing to do is to leave it alone - this is with the same horse, i’m saying.
i hate to say so but it also sounds like it’s beyond your abilities. i’d urge you to get another instructor involved who has lengthy experience with these matters.
sorry to be blunt, but as an instructor it is not ethical for you to do this. you should not be seeking advice on how to solve a problem of two paying customers from a bulletin board, where the participants vary greatly in knowledge and skill and understanding and sympathy, and have never seen you, the horse or the rider. please don’t do this.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Slc, First, who are you to tell anyone what to post? I don’t see your name as board admin or mod. If someone asks for advice and you can’t be nice or show any respect then don’t say anything at all. You sound very rude and I will never take anything you have to say seriously at all. Have a good day 
By the way… there is no control or safety issue here… the mare walks, trots, canters, stops very obediently… otherwise, there might be some merit to your position.
nm
