OK folks,… here’s a training question for you. I currently have two students with two different horses that have a similar problem. One horse is an ex-polo pony whose mouth has been REALLY abused in the past. The other is ex-western quarter horse mare, who probably also got jerked around in the mouth. Well,… NEITHER one of them will take ANY contact with the bit! The polo pony goes with her head SO HIGH, and is totally backed off. We’ve been taking it really easy on her, and done several months of almost no rein contact, just trying to get her coming forward off the leg, to get her to stretch into the hand. Its not working. She’ll go forward off the leg, but never lowers her head or seeks the bit. The second the rider picks up the reins, she goes up to evade the bit. Even on the LIGHTEST contact. And she’ll go forward from the leg, but never INTO the hands. The second mare, reacts slightly differently, but has the same basic problem. When you put your leg on her, she’ll go left, right, down, up,… ANYWHERE SHE CAN, Except into the bit. Both mares are in plain snaffle bits. Someone has suggested either side reins, or draw reins, but… I’m not keen on the idea of pulling the horse’s head down… it seems to comprimise the entire theory of “through-ness” which is so important. How do I get them to SEEK the bit? Both go Forward (or at least faster) when the leg is applied… Does anyone have good exercises for this? Or, if you’ve used side reins or draw reins,…I’m open to thinking about it, but what about the “through-ness factor”?
I try to stay clear of venemous BB postings, but what you wrote has me really steamed. I use these BB as an opportunity to exchange ideas,… nothing more. And I’ve been around long enough to know that the advice I get here has to be taken with a grain of salt, and sometimes a whole handful. I object to you questioning my ethics, and I really object to this attitude that as an instructor you have to PRETEND that you know everything, or worse yet, ACTUALLY THINK that you know everything. I have worked with enough very top quality pros to know that even at the highest levels the methods used on any one problem will differ. I also believe that there is often more than one correct way to deal with a problem. I attempt to make myself a more informed rider/teacher by openly considering what other people have had success with. My original posting was somewhat shortened because I didn’t feel like writing a novella. Frankly, I think that “pros” such as yourself do a great disservice to the entire equestrian community by spitting on peoples questions. Next time, just feel free not to answer.
See what you’ve done, Velvet?
But I did just want to add a little something that hasn’t come up: a lot of polo ponies are ridden (in competition, not just in training) in drawreins (and I’ve seen 'em in drawreins AND standing martingale simultaneously), which may make that one fellow a bit immune to the effects of (either…or ANY) device.
Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
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slc, I understand what you are saying but I don’t agree with you. No one knows everything there is to know about horses-even pros have to experiment sometimes.
I think rileyt was seeking some ideas on what else she could try with these horses. As a pro, it is her job to correctly apply techniques that will benefit her client’s horse. Any old fool can stick a horse in draw reins to get a horse’s head down, but it does take a certain measure of skill to be able to correctly gauge the level of the horse’s response when one is using them. It is not uncommon for a pro to seek through books or the knowledge of friends to find alternate solutions to a problem. I should certainly hope that a pro does not think themselves above the level of consulting a book or probing the thoughts of others when it comes to training, and I would not think any less of a trainer if they did so.
I rode for a man for a while who rode with one of the founders of the forward jumping seat. He was a spectacular rider, but he freely admitted that he was still a student. You would think that the person who was open jumper champion of Virginia at the age of 11 would know it all, but he didn’t. He was an avid reader and was continuously playing with training techniques he read about or had been told about until his death. He then at least knew a variety of techniques that could work to fix a problem. Remember, there is always something new you can learn or try.
rileyt-have you thought about trying a chambon on your horses? It was very successful on a ewe necked jumper I had, because the higher the horse puts its head to try to escape the contact, the more it acts on their poll. The chambon is good at teaching them to give to pressure, and his has advantages over draw reins because the horse is in control of the pressure, not the rider. We longed him for about three months in one to reshape his neck musles, then put him in a bungee cord rig to teach him to go into the contact instead of above it. The bungee cord rig was a long nylon bungee that went below the horse’s butt, through the side surcingle rings, through the poll attachment of the chambon, and to the bit. Be careful though-I’ve seen horses hit the chambon the first time they wear it and freak out. It is helpful to bring a handful of grain after you hook it up and feed that to him below the release level of the chambon so they know how to escape the pressure. If you’ve never used one before, I think that there is a book out about how to use one and adjust it correctly. The neckstretcher thing sounds interesting too-it might be interesting to try it and see what happens.
slc-what was wrong with the horse that was seizing while being ridden? The only time I’ve seen a horse seize was an EPM horse who seized so badly that he tore the stall door off, seized down 50ft of aisle, and fell into our stud horse’s stall. Scared the poor stud to death, not to mention the observers. Never seen one do it repeatedly while being ridden though…
[This message was edited by Medievalist on Jan. 11, 2001 at 11:02 AM.]
I don’t have any experience with polo ponies, but when I have a horse that has problems with the bit, try just using one rein to teach the horse to give one side then the other. Start by standing still, gradually pick up one rein, hold it steady and wait for the horse to give. Then repeat on the other side and when that’s consistent do at a walk, then trot, and so on.
When you’re ready to use 2 reins, begin at the halt, do the give with one rein, then pick the other rein(very light contact, just enough for her to feel it)let her tip her nose straight a little bit and release immediately. A give to both reins!
Please let me know if you would like me to clarify any info(I know it seems a little bit out there, but I promise it gets results!). Hope this helps! I think its great you’re trying to get more information. 
Sorry. I guess in my perturbed state, I forgot to thank those of you who replied with what has worked for you. I’m contemplating my next step, but I’ll keep you posted… in the meantime, keep the responses coming if you have more ideas.
In FACT, I don’t envy you trying to remake a polo pony. I’ve known a few and they’ve all been either easy or impossible. We had one fellow with double bowed tendons in a school string: he was great–a solid headset (but you couldn’t change it no matter what you did), educated off the leg, ALWAYS forward…but he couldn’t or wouldn’t bend to save his life. But he was in his teens and had been doing polo for quite some time. Another polo pony I knew had been a giveaway after he fractured something in a fall. When he was brought back, his new owner discovered that he had NO TROT at all. He’d walk and he’d canter. He also had a mouth like lead and the most upside down neck you ever saw.
How long was the one (mare?) a polo pony? I think that could make a HUGE difference in what you’ll be able to do with her, alas.
Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
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I believe your statement i am not a pro says it all. If you were a professional, you would understand that it, too, has a learning curve. No one learns everything there is to know about horses and then starts teaching. Most start teaching lower level students what they have learned (thus the reason the USDF certifies people as Training-Second Level instructors and not only Training-GP). Most instructors also enjoy helping find the answer to a new problem. It helps them and the students grow…and usually much more cheaply than going to another, high priced instructor whom you might or might not like–and who could also give you bad advice for your horse and its problem because they don’t understand either of you.
I think you miss the point out here on this forum that even instructors are free to ask for assistance. No one is really any better than any one else, they just know more and have a better bag of tricks. Since you are not a pro, I would say your opinions regarding professional trainers/instructors should be viewed as those of a student and not really given much merit since you haven’t “been there and done that” from the teaching side.
I’m not saying don’t speak up out here, I’m just saying you shouldn’t criticize things you don’t understand yourself. Walk a mile in rileyt’s shoes and then feel free to criticize her skills at instructing. You might find it an eye opener–and you might find you are less judgmental.
I don’t have any experience with reschooling polo ponies, but with OTTBs I’ve learned they get a bit nervous on a loose rein. I actually takes a long time to get them where they will w/t/c on a loose rein, which is how I like to warm up.
The horse needs to figure out that it’s uncomfortable to run around with a hollow back and head up. But, no matter what they do, they cannot lose the contact. The main thing is to keep them straight and NOT try to set their head. Soften, supple the poll, brief open rein, etc. to keep them straight. Follow their head no matter where it goes, maintaining the contact. Sometimes your hands end up on your hips, and it’s not pretty. Then, when they do stretch forward (and sometimes down at first when they’re trying to find a spot), soften everything about you. It’s kind of like Jekyl and Hyde - when their head is head, it’s uncomfortable; when they soften and stretch forward, everything about your seat and hands softens with them. Gradually you can give them more rein on the soften and let them stretch even more. When they come up, make it uncomfortable again. It keeps you busy, but they figure it out.
FWIW. Best of luck.
OK folks,… here’s a training question for you. I currently have two students with two different horses that have a similar problem. One horse is an ex-polo pony whose mouth has been REALLY abused in the past. The other is ex-western quarter horse mare, who probably also got jerked around in the mouth. Well,… NEITHER one of them will take ANY contact with the bit! The polo pony goes with her head SO HIGH, and is totally backed off. We’ve been taking it really easy on her, and done several months of almost no rein contact, just trying to get her coming forward off the leg, to get her to stretch into the hand. Its not working. She’ll go forward off the leg, but never lowers her head or seeks the bit. The second the rider picks up the reins, she goes up to evade the bit. Even on the LIGHTEST contact. And she’ll go forward from the leg, but never INTO the hands. The second mare, reacts slightly differently, but has the same basic problem. When you put your leg on her, she’ll go left, right, down, up,… ANYWHERE SHE CAN, Except into the bit. Both mares are in plain snaffle bits. Someone has suggested either side reins, or draw reins, but… I’m not keen on the idea of pulling the horse’s head down… it seems to comprimise the entire theory of “through-ness” which is so important. How do I get them to SEEK the bit? Both go Forward (or at least faster) when the leg is applied… Does anyone have good exercises for this? Or, if you’ve used side reins or draw reins,…I’m open to thinking about it, but what about the “through-ness factor”?
Whoa!!
I do agree with you rileyt, slc was out of line. Because a person seeks help does not mean that he or she is unethical. That is much too much of a jump in reasoning to make. We really have no way of knowing what the people who post on these forums are really like. There is no need to make judgement calls on an individual’s personal philosophies.
Kindly remember that people deserve the benefit of the doubt. And that behind these posts are individuals who have feelings, just like you do.
I don’t think this forum has to be antiseptic, but we can be courteous, without too big of a strain.
slc, very rarely am I ever angered enough by anyone’s posts to respond negatively. But I find your nonsense today to be very, very tasteless. You attacked an acquaintance of mine in a similar fashion (although not quite as nasty) on another board recently but I didn’t want to make a fuss at the time.
You have gone way, way overboard this time. It’s not your place to make value judgements against someone you don’t know. The original poster was trying to get information to help solve a problem and help a student. Making the effort to learn is something you spout off about constantly. Why the double standard here?
I totally disagree with your statement this is unethical to search help for a student problem here. Most of the posters here have demonstrated their knowledge through past posts and photos of themselves. We ALL know how to weed out those whose opinions we don’t agree with and those who just like to type very, very long responses with which we may not agree.
Ok, off my soapbox. I don’t have anything to add to this except wish you luck. I think it’s great you are searching for answers for students! It’s not easy to say ‘I don’t know’ but good you’re looking to find the answer!
~Odin
solution is bending, patiently and judiciously applied, but making it a success is so much a matter of timing, and how MUCH, and how quickly in succession, and what to do the day the horse comes out and just FREAKS when you do it — a matter of knowing when to back off on it and when to insist, and when it is too much and when it can be made to come through - to apply this technique, like so many in horses is not a ‘‘recipe’’ where someone can merely say, ‘‘just bend the horse’’ - it takes many years of experience to apply most techniques successfully - as well as this one. we’ve had many, many horses come like this and be improved markedly in 2 weeks or even just a few sessions. break up the stiffness in the neck with bending. not overbending, but correct bending to a 10 meter type radius or about that.
case in point a horse that went to 4 local trainers, all quite good folks, and everything was tried over a course of 18 months with it only getting worse - different bits, martingales, draw reins, side reins, hitting the horse on the head with a milk bottle, BENDING, yes, that too.
the horse came to our barn and the trainer there was able to show the girl how to use simple basic exercises to fix the problem in a few weeks. bending. but to teach the girl how and when and how much and when to insist and when to say, that’s enough for today.
we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. but i am entitled to say that a trainer must send students to others when they can’t solve a question such as this - each person will have a different idea of when this is necessary. this is mine.
Sorry, I had a second thought on the loose reins. Many excellent trainers feel loose reins are as bad as heavy, unyeilding contact. I do know that the OTTBs really want contact, and get jumpy and nervous “looking” for it. Also, when you take the slack out of the rein, no matter how carefully, it ends up being a “bump” on the horse’s mouth, which actually discourages the very thing we’re seeking.
Good luck. These are tough projects but can be worked through.
I have used side reins (under instructor direction) with two “high headed” horses. With one it was very sucessful, with the other it was moderately sucesful (I think her problem was between the ears). But both of these horses were quite willing to take contact, just not willing to bring the head down. And neither had a history of over-strong bits.
If these horses “back off” the riders hands, they will probably back off the sidereins.
If it were me (I?) I might try switching to a hackamore for a while, to try to develop the “throughness” and contact, and then go back to the snaffle bit once they have the idea.
I might also work on “forward, relaxed and straight” before I asked for any sort of contact. I would aim for a old style “show hunter” frame (almost on the buckle), but maybe a bit more forward. THEN, I would start to pick up some contact.
Whenever I have had these kinds of difficulties I always go back to the longe . The horse must learn proper carriage without rider interfearance .
I would use side-reins , gradually making them lower . Get the horse to loosen the under muscle
of her neck . It should vibrate like “Jello” .
This could take WEEKS . You must be patient .
You have to rebuild the topline and “un-do” the under muscle .
And remember your horse should move in a balanced tempo on the longe , not run and not daudle .
Again patience .
Once the horse is ready to try again under saddle,
remember that mares especially HATE to be ridden with tight thighs . So maybe your riders could get a little practice on an easier mount while their horses are getting “patched up” .
The horses will still need a little help learning to give to bit pressure when they are back under saddle .
I do have to agree with an earlier comment …I would also have an accupunturist / chiropractor
check them out . Discomfort in many areas could be
compounding your problems .
Good luck …and never be afraid to ask for advice …no one knows it all .
My daughter’s horse Poncho had a high head carriage and was borderline ewe necked.
Our new trainer, put him on a stretchy bungie device, that is in the Dover Catalog as an “AWA Neck Stretcher” or in the Mary’s Catalog as a “German Style” Neck Stretcher.
In six months he is rounding nicely and has a nice looking neck! Because it is not attatched to your reins and is elastic, the horse can still raise his head if he wishes. 
WEll, in defense of slc, I don’t think she should be tarred and feathered as some of you guys probably would like to do. I also got the impression, perhaps incorrectly, that the problem was beyond the poster’s capabilities. It was also assumed that the students knew nothing of rileyt’s posts here but perhaps the students are fully aware that their teacher is posting for help here. I would agree that I think the post gives the impression that rileyt does not have previous experience with this type of problem, and clearly has spent several months trying to improve the situation already without apparent success. I can’t say whether I think rileyt is being unethical without knowing what was presented to his/her students and agreements or understanding they have together.
But, like slc, if my horse and I were having what I would call a severe problem such as this and my teacher wasn’t communicating to me his or her uncertainty as to how to deal with the problem, and I found out s/he was actually rather clueless and was seeking advice from strangers on a BB, I’d be pretty upset. Now I’m not saying that I think seeking advice on a BB is bad or wrong, it’s just that if I go to someone for help with “X” problem and s/he assures me that s/he is experienced with “X” problem only to find out that s/he is not able to fix “X” problem, then I would be probably be upset that s/he misled me to think that s/he could. On the other hand, if I go to someone for general training issues, and in the process my teacher and I come across something that just stumps us both during the course of our work together, and s/he seeks out from other professionals or perhaps even looks for ideas here on the BB (especially if its not the usual training issues but something much more unusual in nature and not your everyday sort of problem and we’ve exhausted all the standard techniques, etc.), I think that would be fine. Without more information, it is impossible to tell what rileyt’s situation is–not that we have to, but I’m just pointing out that people will make different assumptions and draw different conclusions from the same information.
[This message was edited by anita m on Jan. 12, 2001 at 02:43 PM.]
I sent this thread to a friend who’s trying to rehab her horse to accept contact. She said that she had heard that some horses, such as this polo pony, who are used to heavy contact, need to start back with heavy contact, and then gradually lighten it to get them to seek what they were familiar with - contact. Don’t know - may be worth a try!
For me, this is the meat and bones of the business - how do we get a horse to submit? Well, we’re not there with you and only you know the answer to alot of these questions presented to you here, all I can say is good luck - cuz that’s gonna be what you’re gonna need. You’re also gonna need patience - I’ve been in this very same scenario as you - and the way i approached it (was with a “classicist” instructor - I was fortunate to have incredible help) - was riding as raw as possible (why not? we weren’t in any rush - our goal was to communicate with the horse - and to both bond in some capacity) - and it took a good 6 months until we started to see a change in the horses muscling. The one exercise we use when a horse is tense is to start up on one end of the arena, under saddle, maybe you want to spread your hands a little bit apart to help to create a “chute”, and form a figure 8 (make sure the middle of the figure 8 is a straight line before you change direction) - making sure that you bend - straighten when you get to the middle of the 8 - then bend in your new direction - making sure also to give on one rein - then take - and give on the other rein - and take - you decide when you need to do that. Then, if you’re lucky -you’re horse with blow, or put its head down - or give some sign that he is starting to relax - when you get that - stroke him all over - and put him away. Next time you bring him out he will remember where you left off and you will be that much further towards your goal of getting your horse to relax under saddle. best of luck!
