Marilyn Little...do we pretend it never happened?

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=goodmorning;8537199]
OK, so having watched the near collapse of the horse in the infield & catching some other parts of his course in person, he’s a strong horse. Fights with his head. This makes him tired. [/QUOTE]

I actually watched both the SJ and Dressage to see the horse go in a different phase because I did wonder how much of the fight was the horse. He definitely protests with his head and doesn’t just give. I don’t know the dressage test but is there no more stretchy work? I was looking for some sort of out and down stretch but couldn’t tell if the walk was supposed to be a free walk or something else. When the dressage test was over, the horse was not a “ah, put my head down and relax” type…the head went out…which makes me think his conformation is at play with some of the way he resists.

All that said, I still did not like the ride and there was definitely a point that I was hoping it was end because the horse was just absolutely beat.

[goodmorning]

At the end of the day RugBug, yes, the horse was beat around 5:10min…there was so much course left, so little room for error, the reason horses are pulled up is due to safety. This horse was almost down on its shoulder - honestly could have been - which would have been a Mandatory Retirement.

Getting back to MLM though - Andrew on Movistar had a fight around the entire course. No blood. Anywhere. Not even spur marks rubs. Over a very long weekend. Remember stadium jumping was after this XC course & the horse had to pass a jog. It did. Movistars round is all that is wrong with eventing but if that grey horse gets around without blood, wtf MLM

[LadyB]

[QUOTE=wanderlust;8536756]
It’s Mark Todd, not Mike Todd. And London was it’s own special beast, IIRC, with very hilly, winding terrain that was predicted to be exhausting on it’s own. I also believe they had seen torrential rain leading up to the event and the footing was very slippery and not so much deep as “dead”, that it just didn’t return any energy and the horses had to work for every step.[/QUOTE]

You still retire your horse that is buckling to its knees!

[Synthesis]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8536996]

FWIW and lest folks think I believe FEI is all about the good, etc: I have a strongly held belief that the short format was pushed by the FEI so the WB (a.k.a. German breeders) could be successful in the sport. Removing Roads and Tracks and making the courses more technical plays right into the WBs skill sets…and leaves the American TB out in the cold.[/QUOTE]

IMHO removing Roads and Tracks and the increased emphasis on flashier dressage is what played into the WB skill set more than anything.

Its tougher to get/maintain the WBs to the appropriate level of fitness to cope with the XC demands, in comparison to a full TB. They are typically bigger and more solid. Leaning more to weightlifter than track & field muscle types. Mentally I think they’ve been bred a bit more to look to the human than the independent brain.

End result is that the modern short format event horse is better at dressage, has more raw power and is easier to micromanage. The downside is you have a horse that doesn’t cope with the fatigue as well and isn’t as quick to think on its feet when things go wrong or to over-ride rider error. Might explain a lot of the accidents that we’ve seen in recent years too.

[wanderlust]

[QUOTE=LadyB;8537563]
You still retire your horse that is buckling to its knees![/QUOTE] Completely agree. Was just pointing out to Viney that the London venue in particular was very difficult for even the fittest horses. It wasn’t the number of obstacles that was the issue, it was that combined with difficult terrain combined with shit footing. Viney loves to pull out very specific anecdotes and situations and use them as data to back up broad assertions.

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8536996]
Thank you all. I appreciate the answers. When I watched the video, I was expecting a different kind of bad ride that what I saw. I wanted to take that guys reins away, though because we just kept shutting that poor horse down.

FWIW and lest folks think I believe FEI is all about the good, etc: I have a strongly held belief that the short format was pushed by the FEI so the WB (a.k.a. German breeders) could be successful in the sport. Removing Roads and Tracks and making the courses more technical plays right into the WBs skill sets…and leaves the American TB out in the cold.[/QUOTE]

It also takes far less ground to produce a short format. The long format between R&T and steeplechase took a larger area. I still miss it. But I can tell you a rider put many more miles on a horse getting fit for the long format. But even then then were course designers who gave room for long gallops before fences that required great organization.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;8539559]
It also takes far less ground to produce a short format. The long format between R&T and steeplechase took a larger area. I still miss it. But I can tell you a rider put many more miles on a horse getting fit for the long format. But even then then were course designers who gave room for long gallops before fences that required great organization.[/QUOTE]

this isn’t much of a reason to change to short format. There were already courses for long format so while short takes less ground/acreage, that argument didn’t really have too much weight until after the short format took hold. Perhaps with one-off venue such as the Olympics you could make the acreage argument, but that is not a regular occurrence

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8529564]
Clearly you don’t understand the hearsay rules. [/QUOTE]

Probably not, but I did look at them just enough to make it through law school and pass the bar exam in three states.

I shall defer to your expertise.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;8540072]
Probably not, but I did look at them just enough to make it through law school and pass the bar exam in three states.

I shall defer to your expertise.[/QUOTE]

So did I.

[Thylacine]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8540040]
this isn’t much of a reason to change to short format. There were already courses for long format so while short takes less ground/acreage, that argument didn’t really have too much weight until after the short format took hold. Perhaps with one-off venue such as the Olympics you could make the acreage argument, but that is not a regular occurrence[/QUOTE]

think outside of the USA/local region.

land developers in europe, australia, new zealand and the UK had been knocking on 3DE event orgainisers doors long before the short form took hold.

it was either Short Form or No Form.

not possible to run more than 2 events a year at the one venue without seriously compromising the ‘going’. and even that would be pushing it. not to mention the stress it takes to run 3DE without outlasting ones welcome with the hosting family.

example; even if the xc courses at Burghley/Badmington/Rolex even (any name 3de course) could be altered then used 2 or even 3 times a year the ground would end up a horrible gluey mess not suitable for farming/anything, having to spend the rest of the year under a greenspersons care.

even the short form is pretty much run on the equivalent to a nine hole golf course these days, and would be considered luxury/roomy.

[dani0303]

She won several big classes this weekend at Live Oak, including the GP/World Cup Qualifier. It’ll be interesting to see where she goes from here. According to the thread on the eventing forum they aren’t too upset to see her go.

Regardless of ML, Corona is a heckuva nice mare!

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Thylacine;8541178]
think outside of the USA/local region.

land developers in europe, australia, new zealand and the UK had been knocking on 3DE event orgainisers doors long before the short form took hold.

it was either Short Form or No Form.

not possible to run more than 2 events a year at the one venue without seriously compromising the ‘going’. and even that would be pushing it. not to mention the stress it takes to run 3DE without outlasting ones welcome with the hosting family.

example; even if the xc courses at Burghley/Badmington/Rolex even (any name 3de course) could be altered then used 2 or even 3 times a year the ground would end up a horrible gluey mess not suitable for farming/anything, having to spend the rest of the year under a greenspersons care.

even the short form is pretty much run on the equivalent to a nine hole golf course these days, and would be considered luxury/roomy.[/QUOTE]

This is simply untrue. Venues all over the world had been successfully holding long format eventing for decades. There is no reason to conclude that practice could not continue. Participants in the sport jumped on short format like ducks on a junebug. The pros could compete more often, make more money, and justify running their horses every other weekend. Remember that the CIC didn’t exist until 2000. It does seem that participation in eventing since the changes has increased exponentially, and the FEI is raking in dollars from the new CIC and the “new” CCI. There are, it seems to me, a whole boatload more of FEI events than there used to be before all the changes. What is depressing to me, at least, is how many CICs are run and how few CCIs–short format CCIs though they may be. I really don’t see what roads and tracks and steeplechase have to do with footing. At Rolex, which is the only long format I’ve ever seen, the roads and tracks were around the edge of the park and the steeplechase had its own racetrack.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=dani0303;8552066]
According to the thread on the eventing forum they aren’t too upset to see her go.[/QUOTE]

If the eventing forum is anything like the hunter/jumper forum, the people posting there are a totally different group of people compared to those who are actually out there competing in the discipline in real life, so it’s possible that what’s going on in the eventing forum isn’t really relevant to anything related to real life. This is just something to keep in mind - I have no idea what’s going on behind the scenes in any discipline, and I’m perfectly happy that way.

[runNjump86]

[QUOTE=dani0303;8552066]
She won several big classes this weekend at Live Oak, including the GP/World Cup Qualifier. It’ll be interesting to see where she goes from here. According to the thread on the eventing forum they aren’t too upset to see her go.

Regardless of ML, Corona is a heckuva nice mare![/QUOTE]

Hell I would love to throw her a going away party, complete with a “Do Not Pass Go” card.

It was always interesting listening to the talk in the barns when she showed up at a big event in CA. You would hear some people saying “ML is here!” with an excited tone, but the overwhelming majority sounded more like “sonofabitch…ML is here…”

[Kareen]

I daresay we (as in equestrian community if there still is such thing) have a problem that is by far more global than just a single event/showjump rider being off her rocker with bitting choices.
My letter may come across as overpassionate but hell I sure don’t mind being considered a nutter if it is the prize I have to pay for finally getting it hammered into FEI’s heads they need to do something about welfare before the real psychos take over.
My letter and social media stir has at least triggered some response from both FEI and FN. Has it achieved enough? Certainly not but at least it has raised some awareness and set some kind of signal both within the ‘scene’ and with non-riding public that is getting increasingly under the spell of people who have zero idea of horses (or animals in general for that matter) and takes a completely anthropocentric approach to welfare.

If we want to regain control we ought to be willing to explain what we do to the non-riding public. Not only to maintain acceptance for our sport/s but also to address the acute and immense problem to keep our sports alive because if we fail to infect more people with the fascination of equestrianism we will sooner or later all be banned and reduced to waiving carrot sticks and handwalking our horses as pets. There already is a frightening trend to (ab)use horses (and pets) to fill emotional gaps left by a society that sets focus on material assets above the physical and mental fulfilment we experience when practising our equestrian passion.
I therefor believe any publicity should be taken away from the personal level and addressing the whole picture. We also have to take a stand against those who have complete banning on their agenda. The vegan trend is detrimental not only to a whole series of industries such as farming but also to the animals it claims to protect because vegan lifestyle means that animals have even less of a habitat than they do now. We (as humans) can not reproduce and claim ressources by the rate we have done over the past somehundred years and at the same time pretend we’re animal lovers. The true issue here is not humans (ab)using animals for whatever purpose but the ever so invasive and greedy approach to using up natural ressources.
I don’t live in wonderland nor am I unaware of the wheel of time that may not be rewound. But I certainly know for a fact that this small but extremely loud veganism/animal’s right’s trend is detrimental on many more levels and our sport/s are at the very core.

FEI has lost a lot of credibility by the way they have failed to address these issues. While I have never competed at international or even the highest national level I’ve spend anough time in the saddle, training and showing and looking after high class show horses to know that it’s well possible to compete internationally without risking your horse to bleed from excessively harsh tack or excessive use of standard tack no matter how heated the competition may be.
To say these horses ‘need’ it is a lame excuse and nothing but that. Any of the horses featured in the photos I and others published on FB or elsewhere have been seen to successfully compete with appropriate and welfare-conform contraptions before so it is a plain fact the extras have been added to have more control and be able to ride faster which is just not compliant with the FEI’s (theoretical) maxime to put welfare first. It’s as simple as that.

[Thylacine]

[QUOTE=Kareen;8552190]
I daresay we (as in equestrian community if there still is such thing) have a problem that is by far more global than just a single event/showjump rider being off her rocker with bitting choices.
My letter may come across as overpassionate but hell I sure don’t mind being considered a nutter if it is the prize I have to pay for finally getting it hammered into FEI’s heads they need to do something about welfare before the real psychos take over.
My letter and social media stir has at least triggered some response from both FEI and FN. Has it achieved enough? Certainly not but at least it has raised some awareness and set some kind of signal both within the ‘scene’ and with non-riding public that is getting increasingly under the spell of people who have zero idea of horses (or animals in general for that matter) and takes a completely anthropocentric approach to welfare.

If we want to regain control we ought to be willing to explain what we do to the non-riding public. Not only to maintain acceptance for our sport/s but also to address the acute and immense problem to keep our sports alive because if we fail to infect more people with the fascination of equestrianism we will sooner or later all be banned and reduced to waiving carrot sticks and handwalking our horses as pets. There already is a frightening trend to (ab)use horses (and pets) to fill emotional gaps left by a society that sets focus on material assets above the physical and mental fulfilment we experience when practising our equestrian passion.
I therefor believe any publicity should be taken away from the personal level and addressing the whole picture. We also have to take a stand against those who have complete banning on their agenda. The vegan trend is detrimental not only to a whole series of industries such as farming but also to the animals it claims to protect because vegan lifestyle means that animals have even less of a habitat than they do now. We (as humans) can not reproduce and claim ressources by the rate we have done over the past somehundred years and at the same time pretend we’re animal lovers. The true issue here is not humans (ab)using animals for whatever purpose but the ever so invasive and greedy approach to using up natural ressources.
I don’t live in wonderland nor am I unaware of the wheel of time that may not be rewound. But I certainly know for a fact that this small but extremely loud veganism/animal’s right’s trend is detrimental on many more levels and our sport/s are at the very core.

FEI has lost a lot of credibility by the way they have failed to address these issues. While I have never competed at international or even the highest national level I’ve spend anough time in the saddle, training and showing and looking after high class show horses to know that it’s well possible to compete internationally without risking your horse to bleed from excessively harsh tack or excessive use of standard tack no matter how heated the competition may be.
To say these horses ‘need’ it is a lame excuse and nothing but that. Any of the horses featured in the photos I and others published on FB or elsewhere have been seen to successfully compete with appropriate and welfare-conform contraptions before so it is a plain fact the extras have been added to have more control and be able to ride faster which is just not compliant with the FEI’s (theoretical) maxime to put welfare first. It’s as simple as that.[/QUOTE]

and I (as a "Greenie) could not agree with You more!

I also want to thank You for taking this cause, up with the FEI, and general public.

[murphysmom]

wow. & who couldn’t see the blood?

[EmilyM]

[QUOTE=pepper1986;8528248]
It seems that event riders don’t appreciate it when an “outsider” steps into their sport and begins soundly beating them at their own game.

Pleeese! A reporter’s job is to get ALL the facts - good or bad - and it’s obvious that this reporter didn’t do their job. Why not put in this piece that ML’s horses were seen at a number of events with blood dripping from their mouths? That her horses were wearing abusive contraptions on their heads? But to say that ULR’s are unsupportive and unfriendly is unfair and if a newbie is preparing to jump into this world comments like these are likely to scare them away.[/QUOTE]

i always though NF was more of a PR firm than an actually news source?

[findeight]

Old thread…current discussion running now over on Eventing in the Fair Hill thread.

[OTTB2]

Fuse is lit now.