[QUOTE=Synthesis;8535975]
It is certainly not what I understood endurance competition to be.[/QUOTE]
A large percentage of AERC members would agree with you on that, as well as riders of other nations.
I may be misremembering, but either last year or the year before, she imported a horse from Europe. IIRC, it hadn’t been competing in the United States more than a month when she did two FEI 2* competitions at within seven days–a 2* CIC, then one week later, a 2* CCI–one in North Carolina and the other in Ocala. In case anyone is wondering the horse was RF Black Pearl. I looked it up in the FEI database, so wasn’t misremembering.
I’ve looked up her competition record in FEI events at the FEI, and she seems to run all her FEI horses on a two or three week schedule. I believe that used to be very unusual for eventing horses, but may have become more common with the introduction of CICs and short format. Her competition schedule might account for their condition. https://data.fei.org/Person/Performance.aspx?p=E1BC8670B72497C3B54B621E296A9F7E
She really does have an amazing record of success in FEI eventing competition in North America.
[QUOTE=chicagojumper;8535885]
Not to derail the thread, but that video of Movistar was horrifying. I almost couldn’t finish watching it…it made me sick to my stomach when he fell to his knees and struggled to get up. I was waiting for something catastrophic to happen. :no:
What a wonderful horse to give it his all and just keep giving even when he has absolutely nothing left.
Anyways, back to the topic at hand…[/QUOTE]
So, help me on this. I didn’t really like the riding…the horse was tugged back to nothing and then gunned forward when the distance disappeared. Was the exhausted horse due to a lack of fitness or because it was continually asked to jump with no power/impulsion?
I do think it may have to do with some of the horses they are buying–for example RF Scandalous had 3 eliminations in a row at 1* before she was purchased and they stepped her up to a 2* a month later with only one 20 point penalty and she has been pretty faultless since; RF Demeter had two 20 point xc scores in a row before purchase -she had 20 points xc first outing under ML and has been pretty much fault free since. I suspect they make sure they have the engine on overdrive.
(I am assuming a horse that is being eliminated or incurring 20 faults xc is going to be a “cheaper” purchase.)
I tried doing a google search to find out about ML’s vet being banned, but couldn’t find anything. Fill me in?
You tell me. Is a horse more likely to become exhausted when it is jumping smoothly out of stride or when it is slowed, then gunned, then slowed, then gunned. There was a USEA speed study that showed huge differences in running speed and jumping speed, with some gallops far above the speed for the level to make up for having to slow way below the speed for combination jumps.
It wasn’t a rhetorical question, viney. I’m trying not to make assumptions about a sport that I am only on the periphery of. Hopefully you can respect that and just answer the question.
[QUOTE=wanderlust;8536108]
I never said there wasn’t anything wrong with ML’s program. I don’t know if there is- I am not close to it. I think there are a dozen different ways to bit horses and get the same effect she is looking for without the massive amounts of hardware she is piling together.
BUT…
1: I have not seen a video of her XC that has not been smooth, quick and minus a lot of the tugging/pulling/bad spots that you frequently see from many other upper level eventers (who are not Michel Jung).
2: I have no issue with her horse’s condition in that photo everyone is showing - she’s no skinnier than Tate, and looks very recently clipped. A dull coat on a recently clipped horse on an overcast day in a single photo? Come on you guys, you can do better than that. You can’t seriously tell me you think that horse isn’t getting the best feed, supplements, care, etc that money can buy.
3: The argument gets lost on people like RugBug and I every time when you attack the individual and not the issue. Is there an issue with overbitting or abusive bitting? Possibly. Was it not handled correctly by the stewards/ground jury? Probably. But going down the rabbit hole of attacking ML for everything from the bit to her horse’s coat color to gossip about her personality conflicts just makes this sound like junior high sour grapes.
I guess at the end of the day, I continue to not understand the total annihilation of ML. Honestly, I think I’ve probably seen far more abuse, far more frequently, in the form of tugging/pulling/see-sawing/dental work in front of each and every fence in horses that are in a snaffle but probably do need a little more hardware. It may not bleed but good lord I find that just as awful, if not more so, than what happened to ML’s horse.[/QUOTE]
You are right about some of the “dental work” before fences absolutely I think and if a bigger bit makes it work for this rider, I think it would be a non-issue or some minor tut-tutting if it weren’t for the blood and the defensiveness. And the chain nosebands, those are of questionable legality to a lot of people, reading the tack rules which I think is fair. I don’t think chain nosebands should be legal either.
Keep in mind you’d be eliminated from an FEI showjumping venue for blood like that pretty tout suite, which is this riders background, no?
I’d say lack of fitness most likely; definitely lack of stamina. Event horses these days have to be trained to handle constant slow, fast, slow, fast.
Here are the FEI specifications for a 4* event:
Distance
6270m- 6840m
Jumping efforts
40-45
Speed
570 mpm
Time
11’00" 12’00" minutes
Most 4*s have approximately 25 jumping complexes, which means that of those 40-45 jumping efforts, a minimum of 15 and up to 20 are in combinations. The combinations are all related distances, so it’s usually said that they must be jumped in show jumping mode. What little we do know from the speed studies at lower levels indicates that a 400 mpm speed or less would not be out of the ordinary at a complex. Then, in order to make the time, the rider has go much faster than 570 mpm at other places on the course, usually in the galloping lanes. I seem to remember the speed study finding 700 mpms or faster, but I may be wrong. I would believe that the less accomplished the rider, the more slow down–speed up (less smooth through the combinations, so slower, then gun between) one is likely to see. That speed up–slow down is likely to exhaust the horse over an 11 to 12 minute course if it isn’t extremely fit. Even horses who are extremely fit and ridden by consummate professionals like Mark Todd can get really strung out and unable to jump with impulsion by the end of an intense course if they lack genetic stamina. In case you’re wondering, I’m talking about Todd’s ride at the 2012 Olympics in London on a course that was very, very short but packed with jumps. His horse crawled over the jumps at the end.
(Sorry about the formatting. It’s COTH)
[QUOTE=RugBug;8536484]
It wasn’t a rhetorical question, viney. I’m trying not to make assumptions about a sport that I am only on the periphery of. Hopefully you can respect that and just answer the question.[/QUOTE]
RugBug, I can probably answer this.
Long format used to literally be longer but the technicality and accuracy requirements were somewhat lesser. The efforts were as big, but the overall pace was more consistent and had a flow to it.
Short format has introduced SJ-like technicality and accuracy requiring more setup of the horse. Frankly, with the ever increasing number of corners and extreme skinnies, the accuracy requirement may exceed SJ considerably at this point. When you factor in the related corners/extreme skinnies/arrowheads, the speed across terrain and the solidity of the obstacles, you are left with a daunting set of questions. The result is more like high intensity intervals without the rest between the intervals. Think plyometrics exercises on balance beams with sprint sets between.
Does that help at all?
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8536630]
That speed up–slow down is likely to exhaust the horse over an 11 to 12 minute course if it isn’t extremely fit. Even horses who are extremely fit and ridden by consummate professionals like Mike Todd can get really strung out and unable to jump with impulsion by the end of an intense course if they lack genetic stamina. In case you’re wondering, I’m talking about Todd’s ride at the 2012 Olympics in London on a course that was very, very short but packed with jumps. His horse crawled over the jumps at the end.[/QUOTE] It’s Mark Todd, not Mike Todd. And London was it’s own special beast, IIRC, with very hilly, winding terrain that was predicted to be exhausting on it’s own. I also believe they had seen torrential rain leading up to the event and the footing was very slippery and not so much deep as “dead”, that it just didn’t return any energy and the horses had to work for every step.
Thank you all. I appreciate the answers. When I watched the video, I was expecting a different kind of bad ride that what I saw. I wanted to take that guys reins away, though because we just kept shutting that poor horse down.
FWIW and lest folks think I believe FEI is all about the good, etc: I have a strongly held belief that the short format was pushed by the FEI so the WB (a.k.a. German breeders) could be successful in the sport. Removing Roads and Tracks and making the courses more technical plays right into the WBs skill sets…and leaves the American TB out in the cold.
It also means upper level horses can compete for prize money far more often.
[QUOTE=asterix;8536022]
If you are talking about VOLUNTEERS who spend their day as outriders or jump judges at FEI events, they do not have the authority to “FRONT” a rider, except as it relates to refusals or on direct communication from officials.
If you are talking about FEI stewards, you are misinformed. The steward at FHI who saw ML on course (but who did NOT see blood -she was on the other side of the horse) has completed multilple long format **** events. Trust me, intestinal fortitude is not her weak spot.
As I said before, I agree with many others that ML has gotten a “pass” for obvious poor horsemanship. I can only speculate about why, but that’s what it looks like to me. However, unlike many others on this thread, I have had conversations with the abovementioned steward and the fence judge at FHI - I have known both for many years. In both cases they did their jobs with integrity - the steward did not see anything amiss due to her vantage point, and the fence judge, who DID (jumping after retiring), reported it (as she is required to do).[/QUOTE]
always good to read that Change has come to the FEI - and in such a short time, too.
FEI, FIFA?
only difference is FIFA generally don’t like harming their players. . .
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8536325]
A large percentage of AERC members would agree with you on that, as well as riders of other nations.[/QUOTE]
didn’t the motto used to be: “to finish is to win” ?
lotta people, or at least one particular family in Queensland making mega bucks selling enduro horses to the ME.
wonder what happens to them after they’ve outlived their competition life? assuming of course they do. (one hasn’t noticed a lot of equine retirement farms in the desert during ones travels)
[QUOTE=RugBug;8536414]
So, help me on this. I didn’t really like the riding…the horse was tugged back to nothing and then gunned forward when the distance disappeared. Was the exhausted horse due to a lack of fitness or because it was continually asked to jump with no power/impulsion?[/QUOTE]
OK, so having watched the near collapse of the horse in the infield & catching some other parts of his course in person, he’s a strong horse. Fights with his head. This makes him tired. Rider is not exactly quiet. So instead of fighting you can do things like turn their nose slightly in, but I’d rather not go down that road. All of this catches up with the horse. Horse absolutely should have been pulled up. It was disgusting. He was fatigued with many fences left. The trout hatchery sequence is where you can see the fatigue and the opinionated horse start to unravel. The is the stuff that leads to rotational falls & deadly injuries. No one wants that…except maybe the FEI?
His co-owner is a very highly regarded FEI delegate & I’m surprised he wasn’t pulled. The Brits don’t hold much back…the comments from the crowd were unanimous (seemed like the clapping from drunks)…Angela is a FEI official in the US & was at Fair Hill with this MLM incident. It makes one wonder. Didn’t check to see if she was at Boekelo.
That is still the AERC motto. There has been official communication of concerns about the UAE situation from AERC to FEI.
lotta people, or at least one particular family in Queensland making mega bucks selling enduro horses to the ME.
Lack of concern for the animals when money is involved is not limited to the ME. Or Queensland. Or, for that matter, to FEI endurance, as this thread is actually about eventing.
wonder what happens to them after they’ve outlived their competition life? assuming of course they do. (one hasn’t noticed a lot of equine retirement farms in the desert during ones travels)
Given the numbers dying during and shortly after races, there may not be that much of a “retirement home” problem…
[QUOTE=snowrider;8537130]
It also means upper level horses can compete for prize money far more often.[/QUOTE]
the land requirements for hosting long format meant a constant battle that still ended up losing to the Developers.
each horse only being able to compete to win 2 long form 3DE every 12mths.
even if roads and tracks could be managed somehow on the xc course it might lessen the stupid need for skinnier and skinnier Skinnys, or the stop/start nature that is just exhuasting for the horses and not what XC is or was ever meant to be about.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8537202]
That is still the AERC motto. There has been official communication of concerns about the UAE situation from AERC to FEI.
Lack of concern for the animals when money is involved is not limited to the ME. Or Queensland. Or, for that matter, to FEI endurance, as this thread is actually about eventing.
Given the numbers dying during and shortly after races, there may not be that much of a “retirement home” problem…[/QUOTE]
eh. no kidding. (on all your points. i think you and I would be in whole hearted agreement in many things equestrian)
[QUOTE=RugBug;8536996]
FWIW and lest folks think I believe FEI is all about the good, etc: I have a strongly held belief that the short format was pushed by the FEI so the WB (a.k.a. German breeders) could be successful in the sport. Removing Roads and Tracks and making the courses more technical plays right into the WBs skill sets…and leaves the American TB out in the cold.[/QUOTE]
Moi, aussi.
