I think beowulf’s point is that GJ found as a matter of fact that the bit used not only was likely to but did in fact wound the horse. It was the tack setup (the items of saddlery), and the rule says such saddlery is forbidden. If the judges had found that the cut was not caused by the tack, then their decision would clearly be within the rules. As it is the situation and decision were highly questionable.
If an item of saddlery that actually does wound a horse is not forbidden, then what is?
Any item of tack can wound a horse. I’ve had a properly adjusted, plain full cheek snaffle in keepers with a regular cavesson wound my horse…and I ride with very light contact.
I think the two rules together provide a grey area that I’m sure is frustrating but seems to be where the ML decision is coming from…at least for the first incident. With both of those rules together, I really don’t think you can say the rules were violated and there was favoritism.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8535569]
And yet the Emirates continue to run endurance events with multiple deaths, and the FEI doesn’t have the testicular fortitude to take the 2016 Endurance Championships out of that equine hellhole.[/QUOTE]
Not sure that you can just easily change location for an event like that. And once again, I don’t think you can condemn an entire region and their horsemen based on the crimes of a few. I have actually been to Abu Dhabi and Dubai and seen people that treat their horses with the utmost respect and care. Its a little like lumping the entire US Eventing community in with these allegations of cruelty that this entire thread is about.
The bitting/bridling issues are at the forefront, but when you look at the whole picture (no pun intended), there are many things that contribute to the feeling that something is not quite right in this training and management program. Whether it’s FEI warnings and yellow cards, horses that look skinny and dull at times, her vet who has been banned from FEI stabling, or the attitude that screams lack of accountability. Perhaps one component could be excused, but all of them combined?
It’s easy to discount opinions by saying those posting don’t know how to manage or train upper level event horses, but many of us have been involved in eventing for a long time and can compare ML’s approach to what is considered humane and acceptable at the highest levels of the sport.
Nothing I say will change someone’s mind if they are convinced there is nothing wrong with ML’s program. However, that doesn’t mean this topic doesn’t warrant discussion, and the rabbit trails it will follow. When horse welfare is at stake, no matter whether it’s a backyard pet or international competitor, it is never wrong to question whether someone is crossing the line.
In a very recent Dubai junior Endurance event, the FEI disqualified the first five and fined several stables $100,000 each. I’m sure it was for horse abuse–things like driving cars at certain speeds behind exhausted horses to keep them going to the finish line.
Just to state, I do not discount all of the opinions on here…just the ones that tend to get too rigid. For me, arguments that don’t hinge on absolutes work better…
Nothing I say will change someone’s mind if they are convinced there is nothing wrong with ML’s program. However, that doesn’t mean this topic doesn’t warrant discussion, and the rabbit trails it will follow. When horse welfare is at stake, no matter whether it’s a backyard pet or international competitor, it is never wrong to question whether someone is crossing the line.
I think there is quite a bit of reason to be concerned about ML. I think questioning her is absolutely appropriate…but the lynch mob mentality needs to be avoided.
There is a pattern of abuse that is ongoing. If you follow endurance at all it is clear. I am not saying there are no horsemen in the UAE, but there are too many players who don’t give a damn.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8534860]
This has been mentioned 4348564869 times this thread… ML SHOULD have been eliminated in BOTH events… but because of politics, Big name, Big consequences, she was allowed to continue. It’s the FEI, you’re really questioning if shady things happen BTS?[/QUOTE]
Jump judges are volunteers and there can be a fair bit of pressure on them even at the local level.
Rugbug, it’s hard to discuss all of the various negativity surrounding MLM without sounding like ones piling it on & that lynch mob society stuff. Yellow cards, FEI banning a vet from stabling because of after hours calls, multiple instances of bloody mouths, skinny horses, waving you hand to retire on course & then jumping one more fence (for non eventers this type of thing is not just disrespectful/confusing/dangerous, but if you’re retiring there’s a reason & you’re keeping a refusal off the record), Etc etc. It’s not one isolated incident.
But, this thread didn’t even get to RF Amber Eyes & microchipping. That positive press helped lead to microchipping :lol: 
[QUOTE=wanderlust;8535592]
Don’t disagree with you on the bitting- I’ve said before I suspect she likes that super light, fingertip feel the show jumpers go with and doesn’t like feeling like she has to tug and tug to get the horse back and balanced in front of a fence. Hence the big bits and hardware to get the horses back quickly and smoothly.[/QUOTE]
And if she just said that is how she likes it and didn’t use bits that cut the horse’s face up I think people would care 95% less. It’s the attitude of “this is the only way I can stop an Advanced horse, you wouldn’t understand!” that has people rolling their eyes. Some of us have, I know it’s hard to believe, ridden UL horses. Some of us have ridden the bigger jumpers AND UL event horses. And as for me I have done both of those AND galloped chasers and done a ton of foxhunting including overseas on half-broke lunatic animals over some pretty stiff country and I know I’m not the only one here. I think you will find there is quite a bit of xcountry experience on COTH.
If you want a huge bit so you can stop on a dime on course, whatever. Not how I ride and imho, not terribly safe, but then again I’ve never tried to jump around one of those skinny-heavy courses. The last event I did was 15 years ago. But it’s not necessary on every horse for safety by any stretch of the imagination. I know I’m not the only one thinking that if you put one of those rigs on a really sporty horse it’d flip right over on top of you.
It’s the concern trolling “but it’s for safety!!!” response that is annoying people and keeping these threads alive. It’s because it’s how you want the horse to go. If you use tack that puts holes in your horses inadvertently in public you apologize, take your punishment and move on. We’ve all put a rub or a cut on a horse by accident at some point. Own it and make sure it doesn’t happen again.
[QUOTE=goodmorning;8535815]
Rugbug, it’s hard to discuss all of the various negativity surrounding MLM without sounding like ones piling it on & that lynch mob society stuff. Yellow cards, FEI banning a vet from stabling because of after hours calls, multiple instances of bloody mouths, skinny horses, waving you hand to retire on course & then jumping one more fence (for non eventers this type of thing is not just disrespectful/confusing/dangerous, but if you’re retiring there’s a reason & you’re keeping a refusal off the record), Etc etc. It’s not one isolated incident.[/QUOTE]
I am sure I only know the very tip of the iceberg…I do understand that. Just trying to add my perspective as an outsider. There is some use in that. What arguments are working (multiple bloody mouths, skinny horses, yellow cards) vs. what makes people doubt the arguments (no shine on the horse, clear violation of the rules, etc).
But, this thread didn’t even get to RF Amber Eyes & microchipping. That positive press helped lead to microchipping :lol:
Ah, yes. I did just about choke when I realized the RF of Amber Eyes was the RF of ML. That connection was not solid in my mind until this thread.
There is a whole lot of smoke surrounding ML, and that does usually mean there is fire.
(Mostly unrelated side note: One of the handful of times I’ve jumped judged, I had to call a rider out for refusals, she tried to re-approach…but thankfully not very determinedly. I mostly think she stopped because she was an acquaintance and saw the look of pathetic helplessness on my face and didn’t want to make my little H/J head explode with having to try to stop someone from jumping when they weren’t supposed to).
[QUOTE=skipollo;8535570]
What also gets me is the bleeding didn’t start at the last fence or two. She still had a good chunk of course to finish, and she got past all of the jump judges. All of the outriders. All of the officials. No one stopped her. Spectators were all commenting about the blood as she galloped by, but officials let her continue.[/QUOTE]
vast majority want to be official stewards at the big events as its safer/cheaper/less time consuming than having to ride/compete at those same prestigious (at least to horsey people) events.
trouble is, it takes about the same amount of intestinal fortitude to Front a competitor doing the wrong thing as it does to Front a 3 or 4star cross country fence.
so they all just cross their fingers, hope that someone further along the course will speak up so that they don’t have to risk not being asked to Steward at the next prestigious horse event.
and the fei encourages having 3 monkeys as Stewards.
any boat rockers are encouraged to join sailing/rowing clubs.
A jump judge once leaped out in front of a jump because there was a hold on course ahead. I was on a horse with worn brake pads and I nearly killed her. The poor woman was completely white faced when I finally managed to get back to see what was going on. Someone’s sister who’d been press-ganged into service and the radio said she HAD to stop the next rider. Galway Downs in particular still emails me to volunteer and it’s been a good 12 years.
It’s a thankless job and they don’t get enough training or donuts
I was a mean jump judge. I always ended up at fence 1 eliminating all the little kids and amateurs as their trainers come jogging up “oh let her have one more try!!!” “no lady, get off the course!”
Perhaps one of the aspects of ML that does come into play in her riding is that she and her family appear to have a very good business selling competition horses for big money. The faster they can be turned over, the more money can be made. Most riders, especially amateurs and juniors who are looking to move up want to buy horses with good competition records that they think are made already. So the faster the horse can be gotten through the levels with good records, the better. That can mean taking shortcuts in training and might be one reason for the iron maiden tack.
Not to derail the thread, but that video of Movistar was horrifying. I almost couldn’t finish watching it…it made me sick to my stomach when he fell to his knees and struggled to get up. I was waiting for something catastrophic to happen. :no:
What a wonderful horse to give it his all and just keep giving even when he has absolutely nothing left.
Anyways, back to the topic at hand…
[QUOTE=chicagojumper;8535885]
Not to derail the thread, but that video of Movistar was horrifying. I almost couldn’t finish watching it…it made me sick to my stomach when he fell to his knees and struggled to get up. I was waiting for something catastrophic to happen. :no:
What a wonderful horse to give it his all and just keep giving even when he has absolutely nothing left.
Anyways, back to the topic at hand…[/QUOTE]
It is, I remember watching it while Burghley was still going on. There was a big uproar, but I don’t remember if he was reprimanded because technically “nothing happened.” He is a better horse than his rider is a human being.
As a jump judge, you’re actually told not to stop a horse ever without prior authorization. So all they can do even if they see it is radio in to the TD after the horse has passed that it appears to be bleeding.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8535712]
In a very recent Dubai junior Endurance event, the FEI disqualified the first five and fined several stables $100,000 each. I’m sure it was for horse abuse–things like driving cars at certain speeds behind exhausted horses to keep them going to the finish line.[/QUOTE]
I watched the video of this. In the beginning, I actually thought there was good, if highly competitive, horse management going on with the ground teams continuously running onto the field and throwing water over the horses, return to vehicle for water to be driven ahead and dropped to repeat. Almost like the bucketing/scraping in eventing between phases in long format but while on the move. In the dry heat, I could see the logic and potential for misinterpretation.
The closer things got to the end finish line, the more it deteriorated. Riders were kicking/flailing. Support team members were grabbing the reins to drag the obviously exhausted horses from the front while others struck and yelled from behind. It is certainly not what I understood endurance competition to be.
[QUOTE=Thylacine;8535839]
vast majority want to be official stewards at the big events as its safer/cheaper/less time consuming than having to ride/compete at those same prestigious (at least to horsey people) events.
and the fei encourages having 3 monkeys as Stewards.
any boat rockers are encouraged to join sailing/rowing clubs.[/QUOTE]
If you are talking about VOLUNTEERS who spend their day as outriders or jump judges at FEI events, they do not have the authority to “FRONT” a rider, except as it relates to refusals or on direct communication from officials.
If you are talking about FEI stewards, you are misinformed. The steward at FHI who saw ML on course (but who did NOT see blood -she was on the other side of the horse) has completed multilple long format **** events. Trust me, intestinal fortitude is not her weak spot.
As I said before, I agree with many others that ML has gotten a “pass” for obvious poor horsemanship. I can only speculate about why, but that’s what it looks like to me. However, unlike many others on this thread, I have had conversations with the abovementioned steward and the fence judge at FHI - I have known both for many years. In both cases they did their jobs with integrity - the steward did not see anything amiss due to her vantage point, and the fence judge, who DID (jumping after retiring), reported it (as she is required to do).
[QUOTE=KellyS;8535710]
The bitting/bridling issues are at the forefront, but when you look at the whole picture (no pun intended), there are many things that contribute to the feeling that something is not quite right in this training and management program. Whether it’s FEI warnings and yellow cards, horses that look skinny and dull at times, her vet who has been banned from FEI stabling, or the attitude that screams lack of accountability. Perhaps one component could be excused, but all of them combined?
It’s easy to discount opinions by saying those posting don’t know how to manage or train upper level event horses, but many of us have been involved in eventing for a long time and can compare ML’s approach to what is considered humane and acceptable at the highest levels of the sport.
Nothing I say will change someone’s mind if they are convinced there is nothing wrong with ML’s program. However, that doesn’t mean this topic doesn’t warrant discussion, and the rabbit trails it will follow. When horse welfare is at stake, no matter whether it’s a backyard pet or international competitor, it is never wrong to question whether someone is crossing the line.[/QUOTE] I never said there wasn’t anything wrong with ML’s program. I don’t know if there is- I am not close to it. I think there are a dozen different ways to bit horses and get the same effect she is looking for without the massive amounts of hardware she is piling together.
BUT…
1: I have not seen a video of her XC that has not been smooth, quick and minus a lot of the tugging/pulling/bad spots that you frequently see from many other upper level eventers (who are not Michel Jung).
2: I have no issue with her horse’s condition in that photo everyone is showing - she’s no skinnier than Tate, and looks very recently clipped. A dull coat on a recently clipped horse on an overcast day in a single photo? Come on you guys, you can do better than that. You can’t seriously tell me you think that horse isn’t getting the best feed, supplements, care, etc that money can buy.
3: The argument gets lost on people like RugBug and I every time when you attack the individual and not the issue. Is there an issue with overbitting or abusive bitting? Possibly. Was it not handled correctly by the stewards/ground jury? Probably. But going down the rabbit hole of attacking ML for everything from the bit to her horse’s coat color to gossip about her personality conflicts just makes this sound like junior high sour grapes.
I guess at the end of the day, I continue to not understand the total annihilation of ML. Honestly, I think I’ve probably seen far more abuse, far more frequently, in the form of tugging/pulling/see-sawing/dental work in front of each and every fence in horses that are in a snaffle but probably do need a little more hardware. It may not bleed but good lord I find that just as awful, if not more so, than what happened to ML’s horse.
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