Marilyn Little...do we pretend it never happened?

[Belmont]

[QUOTE=MNEventer;8535002]
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?477807-I-wonder-if-anything-will-come-of-this Multiple people did contact the USEA, USEF, and FEI, and were either given either no answer or given a corporate line. That’s another frustration: no accountability if something doesn’t smell right.

And if (g)you think the FEI has horse welfare at the forefront of their minds at all times, I have some lovely oceanfront property in Omaha for sale. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

I think FEI has their flaws, but as someone that is very close to a FEI SJ barn, I find it hard to believe that ML is really so buddy, buddy with everyone, that she gets away with everything. Rugbug explains my thinking much better:

[QUOTE=RugBug;8534950]This doesn’t make sense to me as an eventing outsider. IS ML really a big name? My understanding is that she is not well liked. In the show jumping world we’ve seen plenty of other well liked, big, big names suffer consequences of the FEI that has zero tolerance. Is that not the same in Eventing?

Who pulled the strings for ML? Why? Why would Zero Tolerance FEI care? I guess that is why people are having to repeat it 2348970979878 times. It is hard to believe based on what I know of the FEI.[/QUOTE]

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=DMK;8534982]
Then if that is the case why aren’t there 4348564869 calls to action TO FIX THE FREAKIN’ FEI as it relates to this issue??? Or calls to take eventing out of FEI oversight and return to national control/long format. In what possible way does it benefit the horse to carry on (4348564869 times apparently) about ONE person when you are telling me the real issue is the FEI? (and seriously, when has the FEI ever been shy about disciplining an American? I mean I get it if it was a German, but an American?)

Also, at least in the h/j side, there can be penalties on the USEF side that must also be upheld by the FEI (and vice versa). So if the FEI didn’t step up, why not USEF?[/QUOTE]

clearly, you guys missed the thread where many of us, including myself, wrote letters to the USEA, USEF and FEI regarding bitting, ML, and accountability for blood drawn in the sport.

so, we’ve done more than pearl clutch and wring our hands. i cannot for a second believe you guys are real right now. :rolleyes: the FEI is a literal mountain - it is not something you can get to move in one day.

why did ML get away with it? honestly, i don’t know. there were people there that day that were aghast… i wish i knew the answer. in the end i think it boiled down to it being a “small amount of blood” and a name.

having met my fair share of screaming competitors as a volunteer official, i can tell you that it would not surprise me if the TD or volunteers were challenged when they voiced concerns.

[LadyB]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?477807-I-wonder-if-anything-will-come-of-this&highlight=Marilyn

The thread that was in the eventing section that the bitting situation caused an uproar.

[goodmorning]

It’s the million dollar question…I wrote the FEI & USEF. Heard nothing. Others have responses I believe some posted on that thread that were baffling. My thought is the FEI only “cares” when it’s a sport that makes them money or it’s a horse or human dieing. Instead of proactively making the sport safer for horse & humans, which is what could be done with bitting regulations or noticing blood - they’d rather wait for the disaster & save face. FEI also not a fan of eventing ,& watching the sport self destruct could align with their goals.

I do not think Internationally she will be given any additional passes. The first incident happened across the pond in Boekelo. Because their is this bizarre eventing XC loophole re:blood in mouth maybe it was overlooked. I get the feeling overseas no one gives a lick about the US eventers. Not competitive & under the radar. Then you have DOC & Karen pleading the case. So you get a pass. Some mix of the above possibly.

As for The photos subsequently taken at Fair Hill International, well…disturbing. However, David & Karen seem to rule the roost. Do David’s ties have bounds? He is the last USEF President…one of MLMs owner is Jacqueline Mars - #22 on the Forbes Billionaire list. So yes, MLM has done a very good job of aligning with the right people. She couldn’t get that far in show jumping…

To add to the matter, there is this organization called PRO that helps these big events pick officials in the US. :lol: Because you know, that makes sense

Gosh, eventing sounds so clean :lol: COTH does have a surprising amount of visibility…

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8535177]
clearly, you guys missed the thread where many of us, including myself, wrote letters to the USEA, USEF and FEI regarding bitting, ML, and accountability for blood drawn in the sport.

so, we’ve done more than pearl clutch and wring our hands.[/QUOTE]

A thread in the eventing forum? I only read the H/J forum. Sorry if I missed it there.

i cannot for a second believe you guys are real right now. :rolleyes: the FEI is a literal mountain - it is not something you can get to move in one day.

why did ML get away with it? honestly, i don’t know. there were people there that day that were aghast… i wish i knew the answer. in the end i think it boiled down to it being a “small amount of blood” and a name.

Tell me how a group that has refused to listen to other justifications from riders all of a sudden does a 180 for a rider that is not liked and says “ah, hey…no big deal this time. Oh, or even the next time.”

Didn’t someone just get eliminated for a small spur rub recently? How can a governing body that does that allow dripping blood in the mouth? I hate to say it because it will label me as an ML sympathizer, which I am not, but perhaps there is more to the story that you aren’t privvy too. Somehow, the FEI received a justification that was strong enough for them to disregard something that looks pretty awful…and looks to be SOP, or at the very least a consistent possibility with the rigs used, for the particular rider.

[LadyB]

http://eventingnation.com/does-millbrook-dq-build-case-for-appeals-process/

Callie Evans, she was eliminated because of a “spur rub” but really it was poked from a brush jump on course. Clearly a legit reason to be pulled up, the blood was very obvious and it was about the horses welfare.

Too bad the same doesn’t happen for ML.

[TB_or_not_TB]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8535254]
A thread in the eventing forum? I only read the H/J forum. Sorry if I missed it there.

Tell me how a group that has refused to listen to other justifications from riders all of a sudden does a 180 for a rider that is not liked and says “ah, hey…no big deal this time. Oh, or even the next time.”

Didn’t someone just get eliminated for a small spur rub recently? How can a governing body that does that allow dripping blood in the mouth? I hate to say it because it will label me as an ML sympathizer, which I am not, but perhaps there is more to the story that you aren’t privvy too. Somehow, the FEI received a justification that was strong enough for them to disregard something that looks pretty awful…and looks to be SOP, or at the very least a consistent possibility with the rigs used, for the particular rider.[/QUOTE]

Everyone was up in arms because the FEI determined that ML’s equipment was indeed at fault for causing the bloody mouth, but because the bleeding “stopped quickly,” and the cut was minor, she was allowed to continue without sanction. This lack of action seemed in violation of the rules that were used to eliminate numerous others, and so gave rise to talks of favoritism.

USEA official response: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?477807-I-wonder-if-anything-will-come-of-this&p=8376611#post8376611

[MNEventer]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8535254]
Tell me how a group that has refused to listen to other justifications from riders all of a sudden does a 180 for a rider that is not liked and says “ah, hey…no big deal this time. Oh, or even the next time.”

Didn’t someone just get eliminated for a small spur rub recently? How can a governing body that does that allow dripping blood in the mouth? I hate to say it because it will label me as an ML sympathizer, which I am not, but perhaps there is more to the story that you aren’t privvy too. Somehow, the FEI received a justification that was strong enough for them to disregard something that looks pretty awful…and looks to be SOP, or at the very least a consistent possibility with the rigs used, for the particular rider.[/QUOTE]

Not wanting to piss off the O’Connors maybe, since they’re so tight with her? Or someone else like Ms. Mars who they’re worried might take her money and go elsewhere? Eventing doesn’t currently have a lot of big money backers, at least compared to show jumpers. Or ML or someone on her team has some serious dirt on someone up high in the FEI hierarchy, if you want to get conspiratorial.

Since no one from FEI or the USEF has responded with anything other than silence or “shut up and go away”, I’m not super inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. I don’t think it’s a long walk from “it was just a little blood” to “it was just a bunch of tiny tacks in the boots” or “it was only a light poling.” And I trust the FEI and the USEF about as far as I can throw them.

[wanderlust]

[QUOTE=MNEventer;8535379]
Not wanting to piss off the O’Connors maybe, since they’re so tight with her? Or someone else like Ms. Mars who they’re worried might take her money and go elsewhere? Eventing doesn’t currently have a lot of big money backers, at least compared to show jumpers. Or ML or someone on her team has some serious dirt on someone up high in the FEI hierarchy, if you want to get conspiratorial.

Since no one from FEI or the USEF has responded with anything other than silence or “shut up and go away”, I’m not super inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. I don’t think it’s a long walk from “it was just a little blood” to “it was just a bunch of tiny tacks in the boots” or “it was only a light poling.” And I trust the FEI and the USEF about as far as I can throw them.[/QUOTE] Frankly, I don’t think the stewards or ground jury really care about pissing off the O’Connors or Ms. Mars.

This is one of the most absurd threads I’ve read, right down to “the horse looks dull, even my recently clipped horses shine like the glow of a thousand hot suns so she must be a terrible horseman.” Or “I run a boarding barn and none of my horses look that thin, she must not have any idea how to feed them.” The self-righteous desk jockeys of the COTH message boards have united to lynch Marilyn Little yet again. You guys should really take a step back and read what you are writing.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=wanderlust;8535413]
Frankly, I don’t think the stewards or ground jury really care about pissing off the O’Connors or Ms. Mars.

This is one of the most absurd threads I’ve read, right down to “the horse looks dull, even my recently clipped horses shine like the glow of a thousand hot suns so she must be a terrible horseman.” Or “I run a boarding barn and none of my horses look that thin, she must not have any idea how to feed them.” The self-righteous desk jockeys of the COTH message boards have united to lynch Marilyn Little yet again. You guys should really take a step back and read what you are writing.[/QUOTE]

i agree that some of the responses are out there but if you think riding all of the horses in your program in nothing short of what you could pick up in a hardware store i think you deserve to be tossed into the mob along with ML.

this thread goes beyond ML – the real issue is WHY: why did governing officials think it was okay at a huge, very public venue to not eliminate ML? any blood at all, in general, is cause for elimination - i see small nicks (spur rubs, branch scrapes, etc) the cause for elimination all the time in the LL. see the rules - blood is up to the discretion of the GJ/TD – why did the officials at this particular event want to look the other way, when officials at other events are more rigid in their stance regarding blood? IMHO any blood at all should be cause for elimination…

second, why is there not a more strict regulation on hardware/control measures in the XC and SJ phase?

the rules explicitly state that no tack should cause harm to the horse – but then the officials at FHI said that “the tack caused the pinching and all is okay!” – does anyone else see a problem with this?

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=TB or not TB?;8535362]
Everyone was up in arms because the FEI determined that ML’s equipment was indeed at fault for causing the bloody mouth, but because the bleeding “stopped quickly,” and the cut was minor, she was allowed to continue without sanction. This lack of action seemed in violation of the rules that were used to eliminate numerous others, and so gave rise to talks of favoritism.

USEA official response: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?477807-I-wonder-if-anything-will-come-of-this&p=8376611#post8376611[/QUOTE]

BAsed on the rule quoted, I’m not sure you can say it was in violation and I’m not sure how you can cry favoritism.

The FEI rule governing the situation in question reads as follows:

526.4 Blood on Horses

Blood on Horses may be an indication of abuse of the Horse and must be reviewed case by case by the Ground Jury.

[I]In minor cases of blood in the mouth, such as where a Horse appears to have bitten its tongue or lip, or minor bleeding on limbs, after investigation the Ground Jury may authorize the Athlete to continue.

[/I]When Marilyn Little’s horse crossed the finish line, it was evaluated by the President of the Ground Jury and the FEI Veterinary delegate. The examination determined that a small cut had been caused by the bit and noseband combination pinching the horse’s lip. The cut was treated and the bleeding resolved quickly.[I]

[/I]It may not be the answer that everyone wanted, but it is not a violation of the rule as noted above. Is there more to the rule than what the USEA quoted?

Also, the quoted posters email that was sent? She may be very right, but she comes across as a complete nutter.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8535478]
BAsed on the rule quoted, I’m not sure you can say it was in violation and I’m not sure how you can cry favoritism.

[/I][/COLOR]It may not be the answer that everyone wanted, but it is not a violation of the rule as noted above. Is there more to the rule than what the USEA quoted?

Also, the quoted posters email that was sent? She may be very right, but she comes across as a complete nutter.[/QUOTE]

rugbug, read the rules on tack - that’s where the violation occurred.

also - extremely rude to call kareen a nutter. if i remember correctly, german is not her first language.

[vineyridge]

German is Kareen’s first language. She’s a vet and long time poster on COTH, mostly on the breeding board. And she is concerned about harsh tack not just in eventing, but also in SJ at FEI competitions. We all should be concerned about harsh tack that causes bleeding when horses are ridden; we should also be concerned about harsh tack that doesn’t cause bleeding. To me, anyway, harsh tack is the equivalent of horse abuse whether it causes actual physical injury (Which ML’s did) or not.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8535504]
rugbug, read the rules on tack - that’s where the violation occurred.

also - extremely rude to call kareen a nutter. if i remember correctly, german is not her first language.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but as someone who has no idea who Kareen is, she doesn’t come across well in her letter and that has nothing to do with English being her second language. It’s the type of letter that gets round filed because it too broad and a bit paranoid.

She submits a link with tons of pictures that I’m not sure what she is concerned about (other than the first that is one of the controversial ML pictures). Is there something wrong in each picture? Are there explanations of what is wrong? She alludes to other pictures showing abuses in the Western and Gaited worlds. I’m not saying there aren’t abuses but it gives an air of “no one treats their horses right but me.”

I highly doubt she’s a nutter, but that letter isn’t helping the cause. It’s like when someone is looking for a job and writes their resume thinking it is saying everything they want it to say and is perfect…and then the company doesn’t even look at it because the skills/experience/accomplishments are getting overshadowed by something else. The points may be valid and true and all that is good…but the message is lost.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;8534910]
When the FEI suspended Sheik Mohammed (married to then FEI Prez I believe) they have obviously not been afraid to set down much bigger fish than ML and KOC.[/QUOTE]

And yet the Emirates continue to run endurance events with multiple deaths, and the FEI doesn’t have the testicular fortitude to take the 2016 Endurance Championships out of that equine hellhole.

[skipollo]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8535421]
i agree that some of the responses are out there but if you think riding all of the horses in your program in nothing short of what you could pick up in a hardware store i think you deserve to be tossed into the mob along with ML.

this thread goes beyond ML – the real issue is WHY: why did governing officials think it was okay at a huge, very public venue to not eliminate ML? any blood at all, in general, is cause for elimination - i see small nicks (spur rubs, branch scrapes, etc) the cause for elimination all the time in the LL. see the rules - blood is up to the discretion of the GJ/TD – why did the officials at this particular event want to look the other way, when officials at other events are more rigid in their stance regarding blood? IMHO any blood at all should be cause for elimination…

second, why is there not a more strict regulation on hardware/control measures in the XC and SJ phase?

the rules explicitly state that no tack should cause harm to the horse – but then the officials at FHI said that “the tack caused the pinching and all is okay!” – does anyone else see a problem with this?[/QUOTE]

What also gets me is the bleeding didn’t start at the last fence or two. She still had a good chunk of course to finish, and she got past all of the jump judges. All of the outriders. All of the officials. No one stopped her. Spectators were all commenting about the blood as she galloped by, but officials let her continue.

[goodmorning]

[QUOTE=wanderlust;8535413]
Frankly, I don’t think the stewards or ground jury really care about pissing off the O’Connors or Ms. Mars.

This is one of the most absurd threads I’ve read, right down to “the horse looks dull, even my recently clipped horses shine like the glow of a thousand hot suns so she must be a terrible horseman.” Or “I run a boarding barn and none of my horses look that thin, she must not have any idea how to feed them.” The self-righteous desk jockeys of the COTH message boards have united to lynch Marilyn Little yet again. You guys should really take a step back and read what you are writing.[/QUOTE]
Why is it too much to understand that if one have tons of money & the faces of the sport behind them, that rule ambiguity or uncertainties of any sort are going to land in favor of the rider? Look at these Colvin cases - messy. Nothing is cut & dry if there’s any room for interpretation. These officials can very well be not asked to return next time around.

The fact that jumper riders can get punished for spur rubs & not blood from a bit XC - that there’s any question, its disheartening. Our horses work very hard for us. The sport is too dangerous. Another dead horse last week. Which is why these conversations & threads get passionate…

Yes, I’d love to say no one cares about DOC & Mars but many many people saw a grey finish Burghley this past year that should have been pulled up. It was unacceptable. Owner some important Burghley person…makes you wonder. But not really, ain’t no politics like local politics & old boys clubs.

[wanderlust]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8535421]
i agree that some of the responses are out there but if you think riding all of the horses in your program in nothing short of what you could pick up in a hardware store i think you deserve to be tossed into the mob along with ML.

this thread goes beyond ML – the real issue is WHY: why did governing officials think it was okay at a huge, very public venue to not eliminate ML? any blood at all, in general, is cause for elimination - i see small nicks (spur rubs, branch scrapes, etc) the cause for elimination all the time in the LL. see the rules - blood is up to the discretion of the GJ/TD – why did the officials at this particular event want to look the other way, when officials at other events are more rigid in their stance regarding blood? IMHO any blood at all should be cause for elimination…

second, why is there not a more strict regulation on hardware/control measures in the XC and SJ phase?

the rules explicitly state that no tack should cause harm to the horse – but then the officials at FHI said that “the tack caused the pinching and all is okay!” – does anyone else see a problem with this?[/QUOTE] But that’s my point, beowulf- instead of sticking with the issue, people are attacking the individual about some really weird sht which is completely unrelated, and frankly, I don’t think they have any experience with (like keeping weight on finicky super fit 4 horses).

Don’t disagree with you on the bitting- I’ve said before I suspect she likes that super light, fingertip feel the show jumpers go with and doesn’t like feeling like she has to tug and tug to get the horse back and balanced in front of a fence. Hence the big bits and hardware to get the horses back quickly and smoothly.

But using the bitting issue to segue into the absurd pages of comments about her horse’s coat and condition is just bizarre. I’ve seen plenty of horses trotted up at Rolex looking dull with ribs on display, and more than my share of photos from Burghley, Badminton, Luhmulen, etc in that same condition. A lot of the posters are behaving like a pack of rabid dogs with their prey in sight.

[goodmorning]

So Andrew James on Movistar whose round was disturbing…co-owner Angela Tucker. Angela also President of the Ground Jury at Fair Hill 2* this past fall. Culture of Indifference…

Video here of that round & it starts going downhill around 5:10: http://vod2015.burghley.tv

Wonderlust I do agree attacks of coat are a bit much however perception is important & hers have been unkempt. Not having that 4* glow.

[RugBug]

@beowulf

rugbug, read the rules on tack - that’s where the violation occurred.

Okay, so I read Use of Tack in Eventing and what seemed like the pertinent areas of Eventing Rules 2016 -Clean copy. https://www.fei.org/fei/regulations/eventing

[QUOTE=beowulf;8535421]
the rules explicitly state that no tack should cause harm to the horse – but then the officials at FHI said that “the tack caused the pinching and all is okay!” – does anyone else see a problem with this?[/QUOTE]

Is this the rule you are referring too? Perhaps I missed something in use of tack because nothing stood out to me that was the issue with ML (I was, however, distracted by all the pictures…and by some of the forbidden set-ups. Who would have thought?)

539.3.2 Forbidden

Any form of blinkers, side, running or balancing reins; tongue straps and/or tying down theHorse’s tongue; any other restrictions, any bit or other item of saddlery likely to wound a Horse. Sheepskin (or other material) may not be used as addition on cheek pieces of the bridle.For Cross Country, any device which could restrict the smooth separation of the Athlete’s

I don’t think this supercedes Rule 526.4 (blood on horse). I think 526.4 clarifies when it is appropriate to review the situation.