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Marilyn Little...do we pretend it never happened?

Hunter/Jumper
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#141

[QUOTE=SonnysMom;8533526]
If that is the only concern then have a bit check after the class. I have a horse that rubs easily, not enough for blood but enough for rubs. He gets rubs on his legs from boots, he got a rub on his back from the seam overlap on his Mattes pad. He rubs easily. I cannot use a loose ring without bit guards for him. I don’t even use a flash. I cannot use a 3 ring gag without bit guards (for foxhunting). I have to tape the hooks on a pelham if I use that as they will rub him. He is gray and white.

It just seems strange to me that I can’t use bit guards to protect him from rubbing. I tried a basic KK bit. That is a pretty soft bit but I would never be able to show in it because of the bit guards. I now use a boucher.

Is blood in the mouth really that much of a problem at the lower levels? (Below double bridle level)[/QUOTE]

There are Vet checks at FEI events, after every phase there is a bit check.

#142

[QUOTE=beowulf;8533553]
blood in the mouth is a problem period. i am sorry your guy is so thin skinned but i really don’t think we should be bending the rules for one special flower when it will be for the detriment of many others… you can still use the bit rings in XC and stadium and i think that is a fair compromise.[/QUOTE]

When I asked if blood in the mouth was a problem at lower levels I meant does it really occur that often? I have never seen it personally and never heard about it.
My horse is not such a special flower. I know a number of horses that either rub or pinch with loose rings. They don’t pinch enough for blood but do get a raw spot in the corner of the mouth.

#143

[QUOTE=beowulf;8533553]
blood in the mouth is a problem period. i am sorry your guy is so thin skinned but i really don’t think we should be bending the rules for one special flower when it will be for the detriment of many others… you can still use the bit rings in XC and stadium and i think that is a fair compromise.[/QUOTE]

Bold my point. So many of you are saying earlier "We should change the rules to mirror dressage bridling rules, because ONE PERSON is using a legal set-up that is not liked.

No matter what bridle rules change, people will still find a way to ride aggressively and use bits that you may or may not like. Dressage has proven this MANY times. Also, we keep labeling everything a “snaffle” on other horses in this thread. Honestly, unless you can see the real mouth piece, people are just assuming that Jilly is riding Brown Horse in the biggest, fattest, nicest snaffle ever. Growing up in hunterland, I have found out that this is just not the case, most of the time.

Not to mention, showing a picture of a horse that USED to belong to ML standing still, in an arena, in what is, again, assumed to be a snaffle. Then saying that so and so is a great trainer and horse can just go in a snaffle. Show me a picture of the horse galloping over a UL XC course in the get up with that same young girl, and I will actually take those comments seriously.

When COTH goes on a lynch mob, they really go on a lynch mob.

PS. ML SJ’s quite a few of horses, including some named in this thread, in what appears to be a snaffle.

#144

Its funny. I’ve ridden for decades now. (wow, that makes me feel old …)

I’ve ridden some extremely strong horses too and am crazy upper body strong. I’ve used regular snaffles, pelhams (love 'em), elevators (meh), gags (hate 'em) and the rare double wire twist. I’ve only seen blood in a horse’s mouth once. That horse bit his tongue as I was putting on the bridle and I untacked to avoid riding with a mouth injury.

I’ve seen lip cracks on school horses and the occasional corner rub, but to have the kind of effect ML has had, twice and in public? I just don’t get it. Neither do I understand the logic behind combining that gear beyond sheer brute force…

#145

[QUOTE=Belmont;8534212]
Not to mention showing a picture of a horse that USED to belong to ML standing still, in an arena, in what is assume to be a snaffle. Then saying that so and so is a great trainer and horse can just go in a snaffle. Show me a picture of the horse galloping over a UL XC course in the get up with that same young girl, and I will actually take those comments seriously.[/QUOTE]

If you’re talking about my post, I was echoing ML’s own statement that her horses are so fit and strong (and other UL horse are not…?) that they need these kinds of setups so she can control them.

https://www.facebook.com/Marilyn-Lit...ref=ts&fref=ts

I don’t disagree that there is a major difference between practice and competition, but that also speaks to a lack of training. If a horse goes from needing a snaffle/mild bit at home, but then needs chains in and around its mouth in competition, that speaks to a lack of communication and trust between horse and rider. Even if a horse loses confidence in its environment, it should still have confidence in its rider. Enough to not need equipment severe enough to draw blood.

#146

[QUOTE=MNEventer;8534339]
If you’re talking about my post, I was echoing ML’s own statement that her horses are so fit and strong (and other UL horse are not…?) that they need these kinds of setups so she can control them.

https://www.facebook.com/Marilyn-Lit...ref=ts&fref=ts

I don’t disagree that there is a major difference between practice and competition, but that also speaks to a lack of training. If a horse goes from needing a snaffle/mild bit at home, but then needs chains in and around its mouth in competition, that speaks to a lack of communication and trust between horse and rider. Even if a horse loses confidence in its environment, it should still have confidence in its rider. Enough to not need equipment severe enough to draw blood.[/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying, but “ridden in practice” and “practice in at home, all the time” are also different. So now, we are assuming, which is happening a lot, that ML only rides in this big rigs at events. I’m going to go ahead and assume that is false.

I get why people don’t like her. I’ve seen the pictures. I’ve heard the rumors. I’ve read the FB posts, even the one quoted above. However, since I don’t know her or the horses, and I am NOT a professional rider nor an eventer, I’m not going to slam her for everything she does. Is the blood in the mouth a bad thing? Yes. However, if it cleared with the vets, it’s cleared with the vets… Unfortunately, that is all we can say about it, and there is no amount of screaming COTH and social media lynch mobs that will make the results or actions of THAT DAY change.

You know what gets stuff done? Professional discussion brought up the proper levels. There are ways to get heard without beating the dead horse of “we hate ML, she can go crawl in a hole”.

#147

[QUOTE=Belmont;8534379]
Is the blood in the mouth a bad thing? Yes. However, if it cleared with the vets, it’s cleared with the vets… Unfortunately, that is all we can say about it, and there is no amount of screaming COTH and social media lynch mobs that will make the results or actions of THAT DAY change.[/QUOTE]

Here’s the thing - its not just about MLM. Perception is important. When you wear a red jacket and compete internationally, and you are on the international radar as being one to watch - it’s not good. We need riders to Complete All Phases. It’s not good for the Sport. Team or not, these things are what lead to FEI changes, sometimes rash, they have a trickle down…

The fact that MLM spins it to be all about poor her is part of the problem here. She is a business woman and knows better. She shouldn’t take it personally that people care more about the horses & the sport of Eventing - than her. The fact that Karen O’Connor is publicly worshiping the ground she walks on is :frowning: The blood was brought up by a German FB poster and went viral. Our team and coaching crew were slammed. KOCs butt kissing put on world wide blast.

No, this stuff is not good for eventing. I don’t want my USEF & USEA tax dollars funding less than exemplary people. You wear a red jacket, you represent the country, keep your deck in order. How she’s even allowed to put that type of statement up on her FB page is astonishing. If she were in Corporate America, she’d be in violation of a Social Media Policy & fired.

#148

[QUOTE=KellyS;8533881]
Granted, the pony in the photo I shared is bay, but he had just been clipped 2 weeks prior to this competition. He’s normally a bright red bay, but is that mousy bay color in the photos due to clipping.

Here he is in his summer coat on an overcast day at the Devon Horse Show:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3752623368360&l=68864bb734[/QUOTE]

He is a lovely pony, but again, pictures are so deceptive.

I have a chestnut now, and my last three horses were bays (blood, seal and mahogany). The chestnut is one of those really really really metallic red types. He is also a beached whale, but that is besides the point.

This is him with little to no grooming or food for that matter (a dollop of oil on some ration balancer, pasture and a salt block)

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5675/20446000399_be00f1f053_h.jpg

Obviously he is in fine health if metallic sheen is our standard. But as soon as you take a pair of clippers to him there is absolutely ZERO, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH shine. No shine 1 day, 1 week or 1 month later. Shine returns when coat sheds out. It’s pretty depressing. I mean if I judged him only by his clipped pictures, I would feel like a failure in horse management. Or I should say if the internets judged me, and I cared about the internets, I would feel like a failure…

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/626/20770051295_0a9531cc7e_c.jpg
(his infamous beached whale picture - but not a lick of shine and this was one of those tweener days when you get such lovely, rich photographs - a perfect light kind of day).

Meanwhile the bays were all shiny metallic awesomeness both regular and clipped, most especially the blood bay.

Clipped? Am I suppose to be dull coated? I think not.
https://flic.kr/p/7Ju73j

even finer in my regular coat
https://flic.kr/p/4RWPuU

Clipped 2 weeks before this picture!! (this one actually looked better when clipped - just as shiny and no sun bleaching!)
http://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/2178_1046208349633_3813_n.jpg?oh=3380986def2a0dd49f1e17d2b309ef91&oe=57644857

And it isn’t all chestnuts, the two chestnuts I had years ago (same metallic red type) were most certainly oranjy dull when just clipped, but in a week or two they were shiny coated great pumpkins, not dull coated great pumpkins.

#149

IME, only because I’ve owned a chestnut for 9 years, and another one for 18 years of her life, and groomed last year a chestnut… I have never had a dull chestnut. They are the easiest to keep clean and shiny!

#150

IME, only because I’ve owned a chestnut for 9 years, and another one for 18 years of her life, and groomed last year a chestnut… I have never had a dull chestnut. They are the easiest to keep clean and shiny!

#151

[QUOTE=LadyB;8534712]
IME, only because I’ve owned a chestnut for 9 years, and another one for 18 years of her life, and groomed last year a chestnut… I have never had a dull chestnut. They are the easiest to keep clean and shiny![/QUOTE]

I agree with the “keep clean” part, but definitely not the shiny part. I’ve owned a dark bay and two chestnuts and had a long term lease on another chestnut. The dark bay was by far the easiest in the shine department. The chestnuts are much more subject to the variances in light/angles when ti comes to the shine coming out. My dark bay was shiny, shiny, shiny…clean, dirty, good light, bad light. The chestnuts just do not shine like him.

I could post plenty of pictures proving the point…but I don’t think it’s going to convince anyone of anything. Demeter doesn’t look good in the picture posted, for sure…but I’m not willing to make any comments about anything other than she’s too thin, IMO.

#152

Of all the things, Demeter is definitely a hard keeper as she admitted on a COTH article. I think you can MAKE any horse shine with the right products though. Baby Oil and Show Sheen can do a lot :slight_smile:

#153

Yes, that is the insane part about looking at a picture and drawing that sort of “definitive” conclusion. There’s ALWAYS another picture to prove you wrong. Except for that part where it is just another picture.

I place far more emphasis on the poster who said they had seen Demeter over the years looking OK, then too thin and now much better. The human eye can see and interpret things so much better/accurately than a camera. My personal experience has shown not all hard keepers (or chestnuts) are the same. Whether you should be competing a horse at that level in poor weight, regardless of the reasons, that is something worth discussing.

As for the issue of incidents of blood and tough tack, I am left honestly wondering why - if these incidents were so cut and dried (yeah, what the hell, pun intended), WHY was there not administrative action? If not the first time, why not the second or third time. I mean if only 1/10th the zeal of the internets applied to eventing volunteers/staff, it seems hard to imagine that fence judges and stewards everywhere wouldn’t be on eagle eyed lookout every time they saw ML leave the box with what I can only assume is a whole lot of head gear on her horse? If multiple photographers and innocent bystanders can catch what surely must not be an isolated instance, then why the hell can’t the authorities?

So yeah, the picture troubles me. The failure to reach the logical penalty troubles me far more. What’s wrong with the system if this is even something to debate other than was the penalty appropriate?

Ditto for the tough tack. If it is that egregious (it’s a lot of bittage, in my completely unimportant opinion), then why the hell isn’t it regulated? Never mind ML who probably doesn’t lie to her horses very often or unintentionally catch them in the face, there’s some poor novice horse somewhere being manhandled by that same bittage. Why not regulate the problem out of existence instead of whinging about one person? It seems so… pointless.

#154

[QUOTE=DMK;8534845]
Y
As for the issue of incidents of blood and tough tack, I am left honestly wondering why - if these incidents were so cut and dried (yeah, what the hell, pun intended), WHY was there not administrative action? If not the first time, why not the second or third time. [/QUOTE]

This has been mentioned 4348564869 times this thread… ML SHOULD have been eliminated in BOTH events… but because of politics, Big name, Big consequences, she was allowed to continue. It’s the FEI, you’re really questioning if shady things happen BTS?

#155

When the FEI suspended Sheik Mohammed (married to then FEI Prez I believe) they have obviously not been afraid to set down much bigger fish than ML and KOC.

#156

Why not regulate the problem out of existence instead of whinging about one person? It seems so… pointless.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. I asked this question in post #74. No one has answered it yet. They prefer to wring their hands, clutch their pearls and say “Off with her head” instead of approach the issue with an actual simple solution.

#157

[QUOTE=beowulf;8534860]
This has been mentioned 4348564869 times this thread… ML SHOULD have been eliminated in BOTH events… but because of politics, Big name, Big consequences, she was allowed to continue. It’s the FEI, you’re really questioning if shady things happen BTS?[/QUOTE]

This doesn’t make sense to me as an eventing outsider. IS ML really a big name? My understanding is that she is not well liked. In the show jumping world we’ve seen plenty of other well liked, big, big names suffer consequences of the FEI that has zero tolerance. Is that not the same in Eventing?

Who pulled the strings for ML? Why? Why would Zero Tolerance FEI care? I guess that is why people are having to repeat it 2348970979878 times. It is hard to believe based on what I know of the FEI.

#158

[QUOTE=beowulf;8534860]
This has been mentioned 4348564869 times this thread… ML SHOULD have been eliminated in BOTH events… but because of politics, Big name, Big consequences, she was allowed to continue. It’s the FEI, you’re really questioning if shady things happen BTS?[/QUOTE]

Then if that is the case why aren’t there 4348564869 calls to action TO FIX THE FREAKIN’ FEI as it relates to this issue??? Or calls to take eventing out of FEI oversight and return to national control/long format. In what possible way does it benefit the horse to carry on (4348564869 times apparently) about ONE person when you are telling me the real issue is the FEI? (and seriously, when has the FEI ever been shy about disciplining an American? I mean I get it if it was a German, but an American?)

Also, at least in the h/j side, there can be penalties on the USEF side that must also be upheld by the FEI (and vice versa). So if the FEI didn’t step up, why not USEF?

#159

[QUOTE=Belmont;8534379]
Is the blood in the mouth a bad thing? Yes. However, if it cleared with the vets, it’s cleared with the vets… Unfortunately, that is all we can say about it, and there is no amount of screaming COTH and social media lynch mobs that will make the results or actions of THAT DAY change.

You know what gets stuff done? Professional discussion brought up the proper levels. There are ways to get heard without beating the dead horse of “we hate ML, she can go crawl in a hole”.[/QUOTE]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?477807-I-wonder-if-anything-will-come-of-this Multiple people did contact the USEA, USEF, and FEI, and were either given either no answer or given a corporate line. That’s another frustration: no accountability if something doesn’t smell right.

And if (g)you think the FEI has horse welfare at the forefront of their minds at all times, I have some lovely oceanfront property in Omaha for sale. :winkgrin:

#160

I also named it as the reason that I did not renew my USEA subscription for this year along with overall lack of accountability for the welfare of the horse at the upper levels. They responded with something along the lines of “sorry to hear that” and then have contacted me about 8 more times to get me to renew :rolleyes:

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