[QUOTE=Blugal;8529809]
In my jurisdiction, even when hearsay it admitted, it is then weighed by the judge for its value. Being admitted doesn’t mean it is proof of anything.[/QUOTE]
This is true of all evidence admitted in court.
[QUOTE=handwalk;8529312]
Dangerous riding is not too much bridle.[/QUOTE]
Dangerous to whom ? In my view, a horse enduring constant pain is dangerous.
Also, overbitting, overuse of the bit, and contraptions are dangerous to a horse, (hence he bleeds).
Whether or not COTH collectively agrees on HEARSAY, the fact of the matter is ML has had TWO recorded incidences at SEPARATE VENUES where blood has been drawn. If this is not a case eligible for scrutiny, I do not know what is.
She is running around XC in get-ups that are punishing to the horse in every way imaginable. A chain flash, kineton/crescent noseband, with a one rein gag, a TWISTED wire mouthpiece, attached to a running martingale? In what world is that okay? Does anyone understand how severely punishing that get up is? These particular measures acting alone I could understand - not every horse can compete in a snaffle – but when you combine three or five different (severe) methods of control to control a horse’s face it is glaringly obvious that there are gaps in the horse’s training or that you are not a suitable rider for that horse. It is dangerous, plain and simple, and I truly hope that people understand the amount of pain she is inflicting on her horses.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8529930]
with a one rein gag… .[/QUOTE]
Really? FEI eventing tack rules state reins must be attached to the bit. 2nd rein could be used as a gag. Never seen a one rein gag in competition.
If this rider is causing so much pain, why hasn’t she been eliminated?
[QUOTE=handwalk;8529988]
Really? FEI eventing tack rules state reins must be attached to the bit. 2nd rein could be used as a gag. Never seen a one rein gag in competition.
If this rider is causing so much pain, why hasn’t she been eliminated?[/QUOTE]
see post[s] above. politics. big name. high stakes.
again. i just want to point out these mechanics acting ALONE (IE gag bit, or running martingale, or crescent/lever noseband) are not reprehensible. but stacking these measures of controls on top of each other at the very least does a great disservice to the animal that is supposed to carry you over large fences at speed.
again, let me list for you her most popular get-up for her mounts:
lever noseband
chain flash
double twisted wire bit
gag on one rein only
running martingale
I have just chosen to not follow sites that sing her praises and make her out as as role model. She is not mine and don’t believe she should be a role model.
As a jumper turned eventer, there was as period of time where I openly admit I was watching her and hoping for success. That ended. I don’t wish her ill of course, but have no interest in her at this time.
What I have grown VERY tired of though, are veiled posts by upper level riders and 'old sages" seeming to imply that I, as a wanne be training level eventer rider, (one training event done…) have no business questioning tack use by them. I am so tired of posts about “I have no idea how it is to ride up to an advanced fence with a dragon” so I’m an idiot and need to be reminded that not every horse goes in a snaffle…such a smoke screen, because while true ( have not galloped up to an advanced fence on a dragon and a snaffle is not right for all horses), it masks my problem with Ms. Little. That nearly EVERY horse she rides ends up with half my mountain bike in it’s mouth or on it’s face. I was really shocked to see that argument on a certain facebook page…
If upper level horses were that crazy that % of the time, to me, we’d see many many more riders with that set up, including gold medalists.
I have every right, having had horses for over 40 years, and competing, to not be “OK” with Ms. Little’s seeming need to bit everything up for every event. I can also not be “OK” with a rider that took a crop to a horse over every jump or gouged with spurs, etc…
If I saw Boyd Martin, WFP, Jung, etc ride ONE horse around in some odd set up, I wouldn’t even blink. I would assume they are working with what works for THAT horse, not some issue they have as a rider.
Very well said, Akor.
[QUOTE=handwalk;8529988]
Really? FEI eventing tack rules state reins must be attached to the bit. 2nd rein could be used as a gag. Never seen a one rein gag in competition.
If this rider is causing so much pain, why hasn’t she been eliminated?[/QUOTE]
In not saying this is wrong or right to have one rein on the gag (I personally ride in two reins or a converter on bits that can use one) but I will say that I see just a rein on the gag, not the bit, quite a lot at eventing competitions. All levels honestly.
Let me add photo evidence all:
http://www.useventing.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/TheForkPhotoGalleryCIC3WXCPics_9B66/Sunday127.jpg
http://www.chronofhorse.com/sites/default/files/Photo_Gallery/Images/121004052923302/NGAWindfall.jpg
http://www.chronofhorse.com/sites/default/files/Photo_Gallery/Images/121004052923302/NGAWinsome.jpg
http://www.chronofhorse.com/sites/default/files/Photo_Gallery/Images/120204053431761/Whitlock.jpg
http://www.chronofhorse.com/sites/default/files/Photo_Gallery/Images/121405053105166/BRH_6498.JPG
http://www.chronofhorse.com/sites/default/files/Photo_Gallery/Images/123004051955538/Kim.jpg
So fairly common to have a rein on only the gag cheek and not the snaffle. Mind you, these are all FEI events. Plus I chose them from before ML entered eventing.
Anyways, not all horses can go in a snaffle. Obviously. Would save me a ton of time/money if they all went in a simple three piece snaffle. Im sure im not alone in saying this.
I find ML’s bitting/nosebands to be excessive. There is a line that she crossed with blood in the mouth. Not once but twice.
I find her horsemanship to be severely lacking if she thinks this is appropriate.
Not every horse goes around XC controllable and without pulling. Sometimes its a training thing and sometimes its the horse and sometimes it is a combination of many more things.
You know if one horse of hers went around in this setup (without blood) and the rest went in normal bits/nosebands, I may say well that horse is strong and may need it. But it seems that most of her horses go in this setup and I just dont get it.
Why is everyone on a witch hunt with these riders? Marilyn Little is a horse abuser but poor Bertram Allen and his sensitive chestnut? Like really, guys, you have nothing better to do with your time than tell the FEI what they are doing right or wrong?
This sport is built on solid horsemanship. You can’t get to the top (and stay at the top) by cheating or taking short cuts, it just doesn’t work.
The bit Marilyn Little used on the cross country course where there was blood did look severe. Yes, maybe it pinched the tongue, but not likely. The horse probably bit it’s tongue. You’d complain more if she was galloping out of control at all the fences. Sometimes you just have to bit up a harder mouth, especially when they are super enthusiastic about galloping. It’s just not reasonable to put everyone in a snaffle or a bitless bridle. 
[QUOTE=FLeventer;8530245]
You know if one horse of hers went around in this setup (without blood) and the rest went in normal bits/nosebands, I may say well that horse is strong and may need it. But it seems that most of her horses go in this setup and I just dont get it.[/QUOTE]
That’s what bothers me the most. It seems to be SOP.
What bothers me is the fact that you can find pics/vids of the previous riders that had the horses going around in maybe a gag or 3 ring maybe a pelham and then you see her with all that crap on the horses head. Its like huh what happened when you got the horse.
[QUOTE=foursocks;8529887]
Well, actually, they are very popular. [/QUOTE]
Actually since there have only been two Eventing Showcase events held at Wellington (2015, 2016), the first one couldn’t have been highly popular yet because it was the inaugural event. So we’ll say that the 2016 edition was highly popular based on the large number of spectators you say were there.
Meanwhile the concept of Eventing Showcase remains controversial within the eventing community.
Fair enough ?
Just playing Devil’s Advocate, but perhaps she decided to focus her program on a certain type of horse…
[QUOTE=leatheralter;8530352]
Just playing Devil’s Advocate, but perhaps she decided to focus her program on a certain type of horse…[/QUOTE]
The kind that bleeds?
Again, there is a massive difference between “strong and forward” and “so strong I have to run a chain saw in its mouth”.
Unless you too believe that it is okay to make one bleed over the course of a ride…?
[QUOTE=akor;8530009]
If I saw Boyd Martin, WFP, Jung, etc ride ONE horse around in some odd set up, I wouldn’t even blink. I would assume they are working with what works for THAT horse, not some issue they have as a rider.[/QUOTE]
This exactly. There have been some funky setups on showjumpers–remember that hackabit thing Hickstead went in? But most of Eric’s other mounts go in a more traditional pelham/3ring/etc. Antares F went in something similarly funky sometimes? But most of McLain’s horses go in snaffles. So it stood out as unusual but not alarming, because it was an odd, one-off for that rider, that worked on that horse. It seems…statistically unlikely that one would end up with a whole stable full of horses that go best in what is, at best, a highly unusual setup all together.
Though I have not taken the time to look up the current acceptable tack one can use in the x-country phase of an event, I am certain it must be outlined in the rules. It would appear that if bits and tack are checked for dressage it would not be much of a stretch to have the same observation/check of equipment made prior to the start of that phase. It would be a simple fix and would make it very black and white regarding what is acceptable and or humane for the horse. Problem solved.
[QUOTE=akor;8530009]
What I have grown VERY tired of though, are veiled posts by upper level riders and 'old sages" seeming to imply that I, as a wanne be training level eventer rider, (one training event done…) have no business questioning tack use by them. I am so tired of posts about “I have no idea how it is to ride up to an advanced fence with a dragon” so I’m an idiot and need to be reminded that not every horse goes in a snaffle…such a smoke screen, because while true ( have not galloped up to an advanced fence on a dragon and a snaffle is not right for all horses), it masks my problem with Ms. Little. That nearly EVERY horse she rides ends up with half my mountain bike in it’s mouth or on it’s face. I was really shocked to see that argument on a certain facebook page…[/QUOTE]
Precisely. If it seems like you have to go to a Spanish Inquisition museum to get suitable equipment for the horse to go at a certain level, maybe don’t ride at that level? Drop down a level or five, or find a different sport altogether? But that’s just me, being a lower level ammy weenie with my Econo-Nag. :uhoh:
I think the type of horse they were buying (as they are horse dealers) were top horses with issues they could "fix.’
[QUOTE=chunky munky;8530399]
Though I have not taken the time to look up the current acceptable tack one can use in the x-country phase of an event, I am certain it must be outlined in the rules. It would appear that if bits and tack are checked for dressage it would not be much of a stretch to have the same observation/check of equipment made prior to the start of that phase. It would be a simple fix and would make it very black and white regarding what is acceptable and or humane for the horse. Problem solved.[/QUOTE]
In fact it is not “outlined in the rules” - there are very specific guidelines for dressage, as you said, and they are checked. For the jumping phases, no. Currently it is left in the nebulous “I’ll know it if I see it” land of abuse.
It may not be much of a stretch but a list of acceptable bits for XC would require a fairly detailed new rule and I am sure it would be a bit of a saga. Should it be done? Very possibly. But it’s not currently on the books and would take some time to implement at the national level. I have no idea how FEI rule changes get made but it would have to be done there.
I know both the jump judge who was at the obstacle at Fair Hill where she retired (and then jumped another fence - and I’ve also seen the video. It’s clear as day), and one of the FEI stewards at that event.
Both of them were on the wrong side of the horse to see blood. The blood was reported intermittently on the radio by others, but the actual officials with the remit of pulling her up did not see it. What happened after the finish line, when she was cleared to to return to the barns, is something I don’t know.
The jump judge at the complex where she retired immediately called in her behavior. I don’t have any knowledge of what happened after that.
I know enough from conversations with people who have first hand knowledge to have little respect for her horsemanship. I think she is a very accomplished rider and I would not be at all surprised to see her on our eventing team for Rio.
Ugh, the thought of her representing the usa is most unappealing.
Those poor horses, the bitting is Frankenstein’s dream.
