What I remember about what happened at Fair Hill was that she was using a Pelham with rotating cheeks that pinched the horse in the corners of the mouth until it drew blood. I seem to recall that the next time she used that bit she used bit guards. The Ground Jury must have found that the pinching was not abusive and let her continue. I’m not sure I would agree, but still . . .
[QUOTE=asterix;8530586]
I think she is a very accomplished rider and I would not be at all surprised to see her on our eventing team for Rio.[/QUOTE]
But it’s the HORSE who will play the key role in getting her qualified, or not.
[QUOTE=skipollo;8530655]
For anyone who hasn’t seen, this is the FHI bitting get up in question:
Bitting from FHI[/QUOTE]
Note that this is one of the mildest bit/noseband combinations used by ML for cross country. I am disgusted with the use of flash and lever nosebands that have chains in place of leather straps, which have also resulted in bloody mouths.
If I recall correctly, the FEI began looking at instituting bitting rules for cross country due, in part, to the tack ML uses. The inciting incident that drew public attention to her riding a horse with a bloody mouth occurred at Boekelo, prior to Fair Hill, and there was quite an outcry among the Europeans who witnessed it and were horrified.
I dunno about why the FEI was looking at Cross Country bitting, but they announced they were doing so in 2014–at least I’m pretty sure it was 2014 because it was the same year that they made such a terrible gaffe with bitting for eventing dressage and defaulted to dressage bitting. If that was this past year, they announced the XC bitting review with the 2015 rules–so at the very end of 2014. There has been no further official, public mention by the FEI of XC bitting that I know of.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8530684]
I dunno about why the FEI was looking at Cross Country bitting, but they announced they were doing so in 2014–at least I’m pretty sure it was 2014 because it was the same year that they made such a terrible gaffe with bitting for eventing dressage and defaulted to dressage bitting. If that was this past year, they announced the XC bitting review with the 2015 rules–so at the very end of 2014. There has been no further official, public mention by the FEI of XC bitting that I know of.[/QUOTE]
ML has been making these types of bitting choices since she began eventing. While the recent incidents at Boekelo and Fair Hill brought it to more public attention, the FEI has been taking note for much longer. As noted earlier in this thread, the FEI verbal warning and yellow card go back to 2013.
Based on what I have seen, I am fairly certain she uses the big bitting rigs so that she can go really fast between fences and the set up for the jump, show jumping style, with minimal time wasted.
I find the nosebands to be the most repulsive. Horses need to be able to move their mouths/lips without pain. I would have never even thought these things existed. I must be pretty naive because putting a bit burr on a horse I groomed was a bit uncomfortable for me.
I’ve groomed through the 3* level so have seen a fair bit and totally understand feral upper level horses. It took 45 minutes to bridle one of our 3* horses at shows and another could regularly be counted on to buck continuously while being led when he was feeling frisky. Another 3* horse was typically led by two people. The biggest bit my rider used was a three ring elevator bit. She did get run off with once really bad by the latter horse - he was retired at the end of the season. I did ride them too for trot/canter sets. We always went out with draw reins “just in case” but we only rode in snaffles at home.
[QUOTE=KellyS;8530691]
ML has been making these types of bitting choices since she began eventing. While the recent incidents at Boekelo and Fair Hill brought it to more public attention, the FEI has been taking note for much longer. As noted earlier in this thread, the FEI verbal warning and yellow card go back to 2013.[/QUOTE]
Yabbut, the yellow card was for leaving the event after a fall without checking first with medical personnel.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8530730]
Yabbut, the yellow card was for leaving the event after a fall without checking first with medical personnel.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I realize that. It was an example of why she’s been on the FEI radar for some time, and just one example. The bitting/bridling issues are the tip of the iceberg.
Why are you so aurgumentative with people on this thread? I usually respect your posts, but nitpicking with others on the admissibility of “hearsay” and on what I’ve posted (based on conversations with more than one FEI eventing steward) is derailing this topic and a bit petty.
[QUOTE=CatchMeIfUCan;8530709]
[B]Based on what I have seen, I am fairly certain she uses the big bitting rigs so that she can go really fast between fences and the set up for the jump, show jumping style, with minimal time wasted.
I find the nosebands to be the most repulsive. Horses need to be able to move their mouths/lips without pain. I would have never even thought these things existed. I must be pretty naive because putting a bit burr on a horse I groomed was a bit uncomfortable for me.
[/B]
I’ve groomed through the 3* level so have seen a fair bit and totally understand feral upper level horses. It took 45 minutes to bridle one of our 3* horses at shows and another could regularly be counted on to buck continuously while being led when he was feeling frisky. Another 3* horse was typically led by two people. The biggest bit my rider used was a three ring elevator bit. She did get run off with once really bad by the latter horse - he was retired at the end of the season. I did ride them too for trot/canter sets. We always went out with draw reins “just in case” but we only rode in snaffles at home.[/QUOTE]
Same. It looks like a teenage boy learning how to drive. GO REALLY FAST then there’s a red light SLAM ON THE BRAKES then it turns green GO REALLY FAST AGAIN. I had never heard of a chain figure 8/flash until I saw a photo of her using one. It’s basically wrapping a chain around a horse’s mouth so tight he can’t open it, which is barbaric and heartbreaking. Who ever thought it was a good idea…
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8530623]
What I remember about what happened at Fair Hill was that she was using a Pelham with rotating cheeks that pinched the horse in the corners of the mouth until it drew blood. I seem to recall that the next time she used that bit she used bit guards. The Ground Jury must have found that the pinching was not abusive and let her continue. I’m not sure I would agree, but still . . .[/QUOTE]
According to the official statement released after Fair Hill, the horse had a cut in it’s mouth, not pinched corners due to lack of bit guards.
Just a warning from an eventer… This thread is looking as though ML may not be as welcome back in the jumper world as she thought. So, my advice is tread lightly. You wouldn’t want her to pick up her marbles and move to, say, the reining world, or even the carriage driving world now would you!
As others have stated, if it was one horse with a bunch of hardware, I would think “ugh. That one must be fun to ride.” But as it is most of her horses, it is obviously a program issue, not a one nutty horse issue. I have no issues with using the bit that works for the horse, but if everything in the barn comes out looking like you walked down the tool aisle at Home Depot grabbing things to strap to its face, there’s an issue…and it’s NOT the horses.
I have also said this in other threads, but I am horribly unimpressed with the horse care I’ve seen coming out of her barn. Her horses are all SKINNY. Not uber fit (I KNOW the difference). Scrawny and thin. Their coats are dull and they look underfed. I remember a spread on her in Sidelines, I think, last fall. She was dressed to the nines. Her horse, who she won something with, had a dull coat, little quality muscle, and just looked used up. I’ve been in her barn at home. That’s pretty much how they all look.
[QUOTE=yellowbritches;8531061]
I have also said this in other threads, but I am horribly unimpressed with the horse care I’ve seen coming out of her barn. Her horses are all SKINNY. Not uber fit (I KNOW the difference). Scrawny and thin. Their coats are dull and they look underfed. I remember a spread on her in Sidelines, I think, last fall. She was dressed to the nines. Her horse, who she won something with, had a dull coat, little quality muscle, and just looked used up. I’ve been in her barn at home. That’s pretty much how they all look.[/QUOTE]
I wholeheartedly agree with this, but I was at the Wellington Eventing Showcase where you can see the horses pretty close up, and Demeter looked excellent. Much fatter (in a good way) and just gleaming. Much better than I have ever seen her. There were definitely some horses there that I was not impressed with their care. Demeter was in my top five of best looking horses (Allison Springer always wins this for me). Hopefully ML is turning a new page on horse care.
[QUOTE=CatchMeIfUCan;8531226]
I wholeheartedly agree with this, but I was at the Wellington Eventing Showcase where you can see the horses pretty close up, and Demeter looked excellent. Much fatter (in a good way) and just gleaming. Much better than I have ever seen her. There were definitely some horses there that I was not impressed with their care. Demeter was in my top five of best looking horses (Allison Springer always wins this for me). Hopefully ML is turning a new page on horse care.[/QUOTE]
Hope so. Because I remember pics of Demeter from a recent Rolex, and remember many comments on how thin she looked. Again. I have been around UL most my adult life, have handled them and ridden a few (at home). I’ve been in some of the best barns in the US. That’s not how they look when they Are fighting fit.
One of ML’s 3* horses (RF West Indie) has been sold and has a very successful young British eventer, Millie Dumas, taking the ride this season. Will be very interesting to see if Millie keeps the horse in a pelham & flash (Admittedly one of the less severe bit/noseband combos of ML’s) as personally knowing Millie isn’t particularly a tall strong rider although has still managed to ride many UL horses in very simple bitting combinations. Perhaps I am being too hasty to judge and we just don’t tend to see the kind of setups ML uses over here?
ETA: Picture on Millie Dumas’ eventing facebook page of her sat on RF West Indie with no pelham just martingale and some kind of snaffle I believe!
[QUOTE=BritishEquestrian;8531424]
One of ML’s 3* horses (RF West Indie) has been sold and has a very successful young British eventer, Millie Dumas, taking the ride this season. Will be very interesting to see if Millie keeps the horse in a pelham & flash (Admittedly one of the less severe bit/noseband combos of ML’s) as personally knowing Millie isn’t particularly a tall strong rider although has still managed to ride many UL horses in very simple bitting combinations. Perhaps I am being too hasty to judge and we just don’t tend to see the kind of setups ML uses over here?
ETA: Picture on Millie Dumas’ eventing facebook page of her sat on RF West Indie with no pelham just martingale and some kind of snaffle I believe![/QUOTE]
This picture? https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/12493429_797578723686397_6836049839468782216_o.jpg It’s from January 15th, less than a month after RF West Indie arrived at Dumas’ yard. Either Dumas is one of the greatest horse trainers alive, or RF West Indie isn’t a barely controllable beast who needs a hardware store in and around her head to be ridable.
Some people can drive any horse wild.
[QUOTE=yellowbritches;8531408]
Hope so. Because I remember pics of Demeter from a recent Rolex, and remember many comments on how thin she looked. Again. I have been around UL most my adult life, have handled them and ridden a few (at home). I’ve been in some of the best barns in the US. That’s not how they look when they Are fighting fit.[/QUOTE]
I do remember reading an article about Demeter (I can’t remember where, unfortunately), and it said that she is a VERY hard keeper, and ML was constantly trying to put weight on her.
I can’t comment on any of the other horses, or on ML’s care of them as I have no first-hand knowledge, but just wanted to put that out there.
[QUOTE=SidesaddleRider;8531472]
I do remember reading an article about Demeter (I can’t remember where, unfortunately), and it said that she is a VERY hard keeper, and ML was constantly trying to put weight on her.
I can’t comment on any of the other horses, or on ML’s care of them as I have no first-hand knowledge, but just wanted to put that out there.[/QUOTE]
Oh my heavens. As a lowly midwestern barn manager with boarders hardly of ML’s means, I was able to keep weight on various horses, old, in heavy work (had an UL eventer TB there for training), one with a heart murmur, one Olympic level “pacer” in the sense of fence pacing, no matter what we did to try to mellow him out.
It is NOT hard to feed horses.
I personally have not kept up to speed on her horse care, so can’t weigh in on that, but “hard keeper” in bad weight/condition MAY be explainable in the prairie with someone on unemployment that is just trying to keep horses alive before they find work…BUT someone of her means and connections? Really? even 10 years ago there was $$$ feed and things you could do to work through it.
Yes, there is all sorts of feed/programs/supplements that you can feed a horse to get them to gain weight, but in all fairness, not all horses have the appetite of, well, a horse.
When my former hunter was a young horse (under 10) he got a high fat, high fiber, high TDN feed loooong before it was fashionable or even common. If I could have convinced him to eat more than 2 scoops (10.8lbs) I would have fed him more. As it happened, 1.75 scoops was pretty much his daily limit and every now and again I got lucky and he cleaned up. And getting him to eat hay? Hah! A FULL BALE of gorgeous green alfalfa leafy wonderfulness in a bag at his door so he could look out and eat at the same time (because he damn sure wasn’t going to touch it if it was a) on the ground and b) not at the door) and he… picked at it. And turnout on pasture didn’t help (or hurt), although eventually I had to leave him in more than my preference to maximize his calories via alfalfa.
At best he looked like a plumpish racehorse. After 1 trailer trip from Georgia to WEF he looked like skelator. And this was a hunter! A hunter who didn’t get lunged before his class most of the time (especially if the u/s was first thing), a hunter who looked like he might fall asleep in between classes. If he actually had to work for a living, the ASPCA would have been all over me.
So no, whatever else you want to say about ML, that one is a reach. There are hard keeping horses, it’s just apparently you haven’t encountered one of the type Demeter apparently is. I have, and certainly others have.
