Marilyn Little...do we pretend it never happened?

[skipollo]

[QUOTE=akor;8531542]
Oh my heavens. As a lowly midwestern barn manager with boarders hardly of ML’s means, I was able to keep weight on various horses, old, in heavy work (had an UL eventer TB there for training), one with a heart murmur, one Olympic level “pacer” in the sense of fence pacing, no matter what we did to try to mellow him out.

It is NOT hard to feed horses.

I personally have not kept up to speed on her horse care, so can’t weigh in on that, but “hard keeper” in bad weight/condition MAY be explainable in the prairie with someone on unemployment that is just trying to keep horses alive before they find work…BUT someone of her means and connections? Really? even 10 years ago there was $$$ feed and things you could do to work through it.[/QUOTE]

I agree. For someone with unlimited resources and access to the best of the best in everything, there is no excuse for showing up to an event with a horse like this:

RF Demeter

Although in her defense, the horse looks a lot healthier now.

[Thylacine]

[QUOTE=OTTB_;8530320]
What bothers me is the fact that you can find pics/vids of the previous riders that had the horses going around in maybe a gag or 3 ring maybe a pelham and then you see her with all that crap on the horses head. Its like huh what happened when you got the horse.[/QUOTE]

what happened?
my theory; rider only used to galloping toward fences in a enclosed stadium changes to eventing for whatever reason (thinks pathway to olympic/weg selection may be easier???). rider discovers that galloping on open undulating land toward similarly sized show jumping fences, but distinctly much more solid fences, is a whole lot more mentally challenging than rider ever imagined.

so to compensate, and after hearing all the UL eventing riders talk openly about their ''need for Power Brakes", goes to her car mechanic asks him to make some for her horses. [sic]

upper level eventing, at least the cross country phase of same, is not something that one picks up ‘after a couple of goes’.
galloping safely toward, then over massive fences over undulating open land is a talent one learns over years.

and no amount of compensating all manner of steel into and around ones equines partners mouth will give one the confidence/ability to ride confidently over.

because the first gear inspection steward didn’t say something (assuming here) the rider has been enboldend to add more and more.

if she makes it to the rio games, the horse appears in its full metal jacket bridle?
ha, then Animal Rights people won’t be far behind - even if I have to call them myself… :yes:

IOC is looking for any reason to ditch eventing/Equestrian. this rider could be their best friend.

[CatchMeIfUCan]

DMK, we had one of those horses at the three star level. I would have hand fed him pellet by pellet if that helped him eat. He NEVER looked like Demeter. He was thinner than the others, yes, but you could not see that many ribs. And he gleamed even though he was totally greyed out to solid white. We had to tweak his feed all the time to keep him eating. There is no excuse to have a too thin horse in a professional program competing at a high level. None. The horse comes first, always. If someone can’t get weight on it, maybe it needs to go into light work to fatten up and come out again next year. And every veterinary test on the planet needs to be run to make sure something else isn’t wrong.

I don’t usually actively speak out about riders because there are always two sides to every story, but I wouldn’t have let those horses leave the barn if I was her groom. I would never put my name on a horse in that condition. Hopefully she has turned a new leaf this year as Demeter is looking great.

When it comes to bitting, I guarantee she doesn’t ride in those bits at home. Not surprising to see her former horse in a snaffle now or that her horses went in them previously. It is her style of riding that requires a big bit to get the horse back as quickly as possible. Not the fact that the horse is so strong it needs a big bit to even be rated. This is not an acceptable style of riding in my book.

[MNEventer]

[QUOTE=SidesaddleRider;8531472]
I do remember reading an article about Demeter (I can’t remember where, unfortunately), and it said that she is a VERY hard keeper, and ML was constantly trying to put weight on her.

I can’t comment on any of the other horses, or on ML’s care of them as I have no first-hand knowledge, but just wanted to put that out there.[/QUOTE]

There’s a difference between underweight and poor condition. The Drama King is a very hard keeper and has been underweight at times (he hear the wind in the trees and loses 5 lbs), but he’s always had bright eyes and a gleaming coat. Even when he was ribby after a horribly hot summer, his coat still shined. All horses can lose weight every now and then, but a dull coat and/or eyes is a sure sign of poor management. In the picture posted, RF Demeter’s coat looks dull, but that could just be the photo.

[KellyS]

And again, as yellowbritches said so well, it is not just one horse that is in “poor” condition (with regard to weight and coat health, albeit much better looking recently), but a whole barn of horses that are missing the glow that comes from good management.

Same as with the bitting/bridling, if it were just a one off with one horse, you could perhaps explain it away, but when all the horses go in such set-ups, it speaks more about the rider/trainer than the horses.

One of things I’ve found interesting is that those who stable near ML at events have told me about her use of significant amounts of PerfectPrep (the magnesium-based calming paste). This is just another facet of her program that doesn’t sit right with me. Does anyone know if its use is prevalent among upper level eventers?

ETA: I know that ML is not the only upper level eventer that can be cited for the several issues discussed here, but I think what gets a lot of us is how blatant she is about it, and her response to the concerns raised about her horses’ welfare–blaming the sport, those in it, and her horses rather than taking any accountability for her actions.

[vineyridge]

There is an FEI dressage rule that bridles have to be all leather. Why wouldn’t a similar rule for showjumping and eventing solve at least one of the issues that people have with ML. I know there has been some recent discussion in dressage about whether the use of crank nosebands should be allowed, and chains are much, much worse.

[aascvt]

Perfect prep for an event horse just seems wrong to me. Perfect prep + bit / bridle combinations that look like like a prop from one of the SAW movies makes me think that perhaps she needs to find a completely different type of animal, and perhaps a new discipline as well.
It’s sad to me because especially for XC, we are asking the horse to be fast, brave, bold, etc. I’m just a jumper rider… But I think that a horse gives an awful lot to his/her rider on XC. Too much, at times. Punishing those efforts with a head full of hardware, is shameful.

And no, I don’t think that we need her back in SJ. ??

[snowrider]

All this talk of riding dragons at Advanced. I’ve ridden a lot of UL horses and years ago I rode many Irish horses that washed out of eventing early because they were a bit nutty so we were getting them ready to be sold as foxhunters or point to pointers. The last thing you do is put them in a rig like this because they will flip right over on top of you. I remember riding a big ISH we used to belly up to stone walls on checks to keep her from running off on the regular and that wasn’t unusual. And many semi-retired high end NH or hurdle horses, we even had one who’d been around Aintree a few times. They were fire breathing dragons! The last thing you want on a horse like that is a bit that will get you into a fight where you both die in a fiery crash.

I do think this is a trend coming from people who didn’t grow up hunting and chasing and don’t know any other way to slow down or get control. The most lunatic horse I ever rode around a prelim course went in a nathe with a regular cavesson and you steered with your mind. It was safer.

No-one is riding a half-broke fire breathing dragon at Advanced these days. It’s too technical, you wouldn’t make it half way round. I even wonder how a horse like Murphy Himself would do on these courses, as well as Ian Stark got along with that lunatic animal.

I still won’t get on a horse with a standing martingale, to be honest. I’d never get on a horse with only a single gag rein or a single curb rein. You have so limited control. You can stop quickly sure, if they decide to play along. If not you’re toast.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8532062]
There is an FEI dressage rule that bridles have to be all leather. Why wouldn’t a similar rule for showjumping and eventing solve at least one of the issues that people have with ML. I know there has been some recent discussion in dressage about whether the use of crank nosebands should be allowed, and chains are much, much worse.[/QUOTE]

i wondered this too, about the dressage rule - there cannot be any metal (besides buckles, you know) on the bridle touching the face and this is the same in FEI eventing dressage – when this rule first came into effect and figure eights had the “o ring” for the noseband[s] i remember a steward or two complaining about the wording. i think it would be a decent step in the right direction - it absolutely would foster a better bridling concept for horses.

[Belmont]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8532419]
i wondered this too, about the dressage rule - there cannot be any metal (besides buckles, you know) on the bridle touching the face and this is the same in FEI eventing dressage – when this rule first came into effect and figure eights had the “o ring” for the noseband[s] i remember a steward or two complaining about the wording. i think it would be a decent step in the right direction - it absolutely would foster a better bridling concept for horses.[/QUOTE]

But they can have a curb chain… Let’s not forget all the “questionable” riding and training methods Dressageland has in some of the UL trainers. Some of the Dressage bridling rules are silly, I’m mean they can’t have bit guards for goodness sake.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Belmont;8532463]
But they can have a curb chain… Let’s not forget all the “questionable” riding and training methods Dressageland has in some of the UL trainers. Some of the Dressage bridling rules are silly, I’m mean they can’t have bit guards for goodness sake.[/QUOTE]

the weymouth curb chain is part of the bit, not the bridle - but i understand what you’re saying. this rule in particular is regarding bridles and the metal attached to them.

[PaintedHunter]

The defense that some of her prior horses’ riders were much larger men and that maybe she needs more to control them is such bull. OK, I am no upper level eventer, and neither is my horse. But he is INCREDIBLY strong and heavy (he made Doug Payne exclaim, “Oh wow, he can be quite strong huh” when he got on him) and so incredibly stubborn that sometimes he just won’t even TURN. He was in training recently for two months with Angela Grzywinski, and she pretty much ONLY rode him in my single-jointed snaffle dressage bit and instead focused on training. And have you seen her? She is TINY. (For me, she’s having me ride in either a corkscrew snaffle, or if I need more that day, a Western gag. Because I am no Angela).

If my horse needed the get-up that she’s using, at any level, I’d either find the horse a new job or myself a new discipline.

[m_m1]

So why aren’t bit guards allowed?

[DMK]

[QUOTE=CatchMeIfUCan;8531935]
There is no excuse to have a too thin horse in a professional program competing at a high level. [/QUOTE]

I agree with you on that one, but the poster I was responding to made it sound like it was simply a matter of feeding the horse more/higher quality food, and it just isn’t always that simple. I too would have hand fed Robbie if that would have made the slightest difference. But in his case I just had to wait for him to learn to actually eat his hay versus pick at it (it took a few years) and mostly for his metabolism to slow down with age.

Now my budget made it impossible for me to show him/haul him around so much that I couldn’t keep ahead of things. But I like to think if money was no object, I still wouldn’t have hauled him around so much that he looked poorly (mostly he just looked too svelte to be a hunter).

Also, I have never seen Demeter in person, but when the internets start posting pictures of horses and saying they are not fat and shiny enough, if they haven’t seen the horse in question in person, they should probably stop by the Bring Chrome Home thread for a reality check. That said, I’m quite sure plenty of people have seen him in person and might have more valid opinions on his fitness/fatness level, but if I do not know that is the case, and all I see is a picture… see Chrome Craziness for how that could be viewed by an impartial third party!

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=m&m;8532940]
So why aren’t bit guards allowed?[/QUOTE]

bit guards obstruct the view of the mouth and blood could very easily be missed. - i agree with the rules here, i do not think bit guards should be allowed in dressage.

[goodmorning]

[QUOTE=DMK;8531773]
Yes, there is all sorts of feed/programs/supplements that you can feed a horse to get them to gain weight, but in all fairness, not all horses have the appetite of, well, a horse. [/QUOTE]

When they are 4* fit they usually - even on a proper English day - they have a glow. An example of a skinny French horse who is also a notoriously hard keeper, all photos from Burghley, but still has that glow:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8438/7891010954_11e5e4f863_b.jpg
http://875357559f655c0fd9842374.eventingnation.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/tate-bucks.jpg
http://www.equisearch.com/content/content/20299/sinead_halpin_burghley.jpg
http://eventingnation.com/eventingnation.com/images/2012/09/Sinead-Dressage-Burghley-Tate-2012.jpg

[Backstage]

[QUOTE=DMK;8533041]
I agree with you on that one, but the poster I was responding to made it sound like it was simply a matter of feeding the horse more/higher quality food, and it just isn’t always that simple. I too would have hand fed Robbie if that would have made the slightest difference. But in his case I just had to wait for him to learn to actually eat his hay versus pick at it (it took a few years) and mostly for his metabolism to slow down with age.

Now my budget made it impossible for me to show him/haul him around so much that I couldn’t keep ahead of things. But I like to think if money was no object, I still wouldn’t have hauled him around so much that he looked poorly (mostly he just looked too svelte to be a hunter).

Also, I have never seen Demeter in person, but when the internets start posting pictures of horses and saying they are not fat and shiny enough, if they haven’t seen the horse in question in person, they should probably stop by the Bring Chrome Home thread for a reality check. That said, I’m quite sure plenty of people have seen him in person and might have more valid opinions on his fitness/fatness level, but if I do not know that is the case, and all I see is a picture… see Chrome Craziness for how that could be viewed by an impartial third party![/QUOTE]

I’ve seen Demeter in person a number of times over the years, and could definitely spot some ups/downs in her weight. She did look quite thin at Rolex one year - a picture is posted earlier in the thread - but she has looked better at other events both before and after. It sounds like it is a daily struggle to make her eat. The challenges with feeding this particular mare were covered somewhat in this article: http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-stall-door-rf-demeter

[akor]

[QUOTE=DMK;8533041]
I agree with you on that one, but the poster I was responding to made it sound like it was simply a matter of feeding the horse more/higher quality food, and it just isn’t always that simple. ![/QUOTE]

I apologize that I did not have time to write a 20 page essay on the other factors that go into horse care.

I still don’t have time.

That said, I have time to say that you are correct that feed is not the only answer, (I am still not seeing where I said feed was the only variable in horse care) but IMO, your comment only serves to make me believe even more strongly that someone with her means can likely provide above average care in other aspects as well.

And, as someone posted, you can always make choice to NOT keep a horse that struggles with weight advanced level fit.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=DMK;8533041]

Also, I have never seen Demeter in person, but when the internets start posting pictures of horses and saying they are not fat and shiny enough, if they haven’t seen the horse in question in person, they should probably stop [/QUOTE]

:yes: The shine/bloom of a horse in a picture can be quite deceptive (fatness, less so…but those hard keepers can be, well, hard).

My TB a few years back He’s on the thin side for a hunter but I have never subscribed to hunter fatness. I would say decent weight but man, his coat looks blah, especially because this next picture from about 30 minutes before:

in the warm up. The sun being out really shows how shiny he was…and the camera angle makes him look a bit rounder.
this horse was never a hard keeper while living in a stall. I moved him to 24/7 pasture about a year ago, which he loves, and he got upgraded to hard keeper. He decided he wouldn’t eat the food he’d eaten for 6 years and lost a ton of weight. It now takes a concerted effort to keep him round (he has to come in every day for time in the “cafeteria” with free choice hay, hay cubes and some grain).

It’s hard to judge from pictures. Demeter looks too thin, but I’d have a hard time commenting on bloom because pictures really can be deceiving in that area.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=MNEventer;8531463]
This picture? https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/12493429_797578723686397_6836049839468782216_o.jpg It’s from January 15th, less than a month after RF West Indie arrived at Dumas’ yard. Either Dumas is one of the greatest horse trainers alive, or RF West Indie isn’t a barely controllable beast who needs a hardware store in and around her head to be ridable.

Some people can drive any horse wild.[/QUOTE]

There has been some photoshopping done on that photo in the bit area, or so it looks like to me. My eyes are very peculiar, though.