Marilyn Little's horse bleeds yet again. Red rag to a groom.

[fordtraktor]

A little gray, totally believe your daughter had a bad experience and what you say is true. I have never heard of poling with tacks, though. Usually it is done with a rap from a light bamboo pole up to the shins or hocks to get the horse to believe it hit the fence. The pole is usually hidden behind the top rail by a person standing beside the fence. The use of tack rails is not called poling though it is still bad. That usually consists of carpet tacks facing out taped to a wood rail. Did they pole the horse with a tack rail (which sounds too heavy to actually pole with) or did they jump it over tack rails? Just want to be clear on what is going on.

i noticed a few years ago Heritage Farm replaces all its top rails with heavy square rails before finals, with a similar effect. They want the horses to catch the edges and sting.

FWIW I have never done any of this but I have been around for a while and have seen it all. Used to be Mondays during the winter season people did whatever they wanted…and I saw some unfortunate training methods. I don’t even start to think people aren’t still doing it at home given how careful modern horses are. I guess I am jaded but I don’t think 5ere is much about the circuit that is kind to horses.

[MNEventer]

@JER

Um, how do you tie a horse’s head to its tail?

I’ve been around horses for a lifetime but honestly have no idea how one would go about doing this.

I’m sure everyone’s got their own method, but the way I’ve seen it done is to tie the tail in a knot and then tie the rope into the knot. It’s not pleasant and very cruel. I only saw it done once when I was a teenager, and the person doing it was told to vacate the premises yesterday.

alittlegrey, you and your daughter are very brave. I feel for you, and also for the poor horses that are subjected to that treatment.

[Oliver4Ever]

@vineyridge

I occurs to me that a graphic should be developed showing every single instance that has been documented by photograph of all of ML’s horses bleeding in competition, with the name and date of the competition and the name of the horse, and posted to someplace like Google Docs so every letter writer to the FEI and USEF can attach a copy to a letter. It seems to me that a barrage of disgusting photographs would strike a chord that mere words do not.

I also would suggest sending FEI communications to their horse abuse department, and USEF communication to the most similar department, although I’m not quite sure she’s ever been caught with blood at a “mere” USEF event.

And sent to all her sponsors

[ladyj79]

I’m wowed that you’ve never heard of
polling with tacks or nails or chains @fordtraktor! It was so so ubiquitous at nearly every big barn back in the day that I’m impressed there are people who were luckily never exposed to this kind of garbage, even second hand.

[Jealoushe]

@JustTheTicket

I have a slow motion video of Marilyn and scandalous going over I think jump 7 on xc and you can’t see blood there. I wasn’t super close to the fence, so it might’ve still been bleeding, but it could possibly have really been just a scrape on her lip. Still doesn’t excuse that her horses keep bleeding, though.

It was close to the end of course there was blood again

[fordtraktor]

@ladyj79

Tying the head between the legs is another complimentary training method. I actually got a lovely appaloosa gelding for free because he had had this done to him for such a long period of time that the fluid built up behind? His ocular nerves and damaged his vision such that he had no depth perception. LOVELY horse, but no use to a hunter barn.

Yeah I showed WP horses as a small child. What happens at jumper shows is nothing in comparison. We longed all the horses with the reins going between the legs and tied over the back as a matter of course. When you are 9 and shy you do what you are told.

i am out of the saddle due to surgery and longed my ex WP mare in a Pessoa for a few minutes a Day to strengthen her back and because she is super fat after a long winter. It was kind of sad to see how easily she “assumed the position.” Luckily she wasn’t harmed physically I can see, she has a better eye for distance than I do.

[fordtraktor]

@ladyj79

I’m wowed that you’ve never heard of
polling with tacks or nails or chains @fordtraktor! It was so so ubiquitous at nearly every big barn back in the day that I’m impressed there are people who were luckily never exposed to this kind of garbage, even second hand.

I have heard often of nail and tack poles but never seen anyone “pole” a horse with one. Meaning rapping its shins with a bamboo pole. I have seen a shitload of bamboo poling on Mondays and plenty of people who drag out the tack pole but not together

[ladyj79]

@fordtraktor

Yeah I showed WP horses as a small child. What happens at jumper shows is nothing in comparison. We longed all the horses with the reins going between the legs and tied over the back as a matter of course. When you are 9 and shy you do what you are told.

i am out of the saddle due to surgery and longed my ex WP mare in a Pessoa for a few minutes a Day to strengthen her back and because she is super fat after a long winter. It was kind of sad to see how easily she “assumed the position.” Luckily she wasn’t harmed physically I can see, she has a better eye for distance than I do.

Yeah in both fei dressage and show jumping yards we do the ropes between the legs and tied behind the withers these days. It’s standard, and I do laugh because yep that’s exactly what we did with our quarter horses back in the day. I don’t have an issue with it although you can certainly go too far and I a million times prefer to longline since I can control a release. I hate the pessoa system.

[ladyj79]

Yeah it astonishes and bothers me immensely that poling even with bamboo is still not universally prohibited at USEF competitions. But I’ve already had that argument on coth :lol:

[PeteyPie]

@Ponyclubrocks

Peteypie poling with carpet tacks means rapping a horses legs with a pole with tacks sticking out of it as they jump an obstacle. The intent is to make a horse very careful to avoid touching a rail. It once was a fairly common tactic in jumper training.

Thanks! I actually have heard of that but the spelling threw me. Polling vs. poling. I didn’t even think “pole” because “poll” was jumping out at me. Ah well.

[Incantation]

Tying head to tail - here you go -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCi_c3bjprg

I have a paint pony that we believe had this done, and he likely freaked and fell. He has muscle damage to his back from it.

[fordtraktor]

@ladyj79

Yeah in both fei dressage and show jumping yards we do the ropes between the legs and tied behind the withers these days. It’s standard, and I do laugh because yep that’s exactly what we did with our quarter horses back in the day. I don’t have an issue with it although you can certainly go too far and I a million times prefer to longline since I can control a release. I hate the pessoa system.

i wouldn’t use a Pessoa on any horse with mild tension but this mare is 12 and BTDT and needs to use her butt as she is downhill by nearly 2 inches. I won’t let it near my TB who can be playful. The reins under the legs get them too behind the bit and avoiding contact.

I posted on here like 5+ years ago when fake tails in hunters became a thing as did injectable mag, that hunter jumper horse torture techniques just lagged the QHs and weren’t actually better. Guess that continues to be true. Ugh. Doesn’t matter what the rules are, people will continue to push them and be cruel to the horse’s is all I have learned. Some barns did the tying to the tail thing at AQHA shows in like 1995. Nothing new. Luckily not my trainer with that. Still, what a crap fest. Hunters go first, now they are practically loping around with 1lb. fake tails drugged and LTD so incompetent ammies can ride them. UGH.

[ladyj79]

@fordtraktor

Still, what a crap fest. Hunters go first, now they are practically loping around with 1lb. fake tails drugged and LTD so incompetent ammies can ride them. UGH.

come on now, they’re drugged for the pros too :lol::lol::lol:

people would probably be shocked to know the old 100 day test had horses with heads tied to tails. They shouldn’t be shocked though. Nothing new under the sun and there will always be people who just don’t gaf

[shea_smom]

Alittlegray, thank you for speaking out. Your post has the ring of truth. I am disgusted.

[vineyridge]

Isn’t tail numbing illegal by FEI Rules? I seem to recall that it is.

Under Article 142 of the FEI General Rules, entitled “Abuse of Horses”, the following is specifically listed:

To abnormally sensitise or desensitise any part of a Horse

It’s also completely illegal under that same Article to pole a horse.

Here is the Rule in question:

Article 142- Abuse of Horses

1. No person may abuse a Horse during an Event or at any other time. “Abuse” means an action or omission which causes or is likely to cause pain or unnecessary discomfort to a Horse, including, but not limited to:

(i) To whip or beat a Horse excessively;

(ii) To subject a Horse to any kind of electric shock device;

(iii) To use spurs excessively or persistently;

(iv) To jab the Horse in the mouth with the bit or any other device;

(v) To compete using an exhausted, lame or injured Horse;

(vi) To “rap” a Horse.

(vii) To abnormally sensitise or desensitise any part of a Horse;

(viii) To leave a Horse without adequate food, drink or exercise;

(ix) To use any device or equipment which causes excessive pain to the Horse upon knocking down an obstacle.

2. Any person witnessing an Abuse must report it in the form of a Protest (Article 163) without delay. If an Abuse is witnessed during or in direct connection with an Event, it should be reported as a Protest (Article 163) to an Official. If the Abuse is witnessed at any other time it should be reported as a Protest (Article 163) to the Secretary General who, following a review of the Protest, shall take a Decision as to whether or not to refer the matter to the FEI Tribunal.

The catch seems to me that the FEI does not seem interested at all in pattern or practice abuse cases. However, it should be specifically noted that abuse within this rule is just as illegal outside competition venues as inside.

This is probably a feelgood rule that will never be enforced by the FEI, but who knows?

[vxf111]

Weirdly Labyrinth just got a 3 day theatrical re release and I saw it in the theater on Sunday

[vxf111]

@JER

Um, how do you tie a horse’s head to its tail?

I’ve been around horses for a lifetime but honestly have no idea how one would go about doing this.

WP trick and an old one. Saddle the horse up, tie the halter tightly to the stirrup iron.

[fordtraktor]

@ladyj79

Yeah it astonishes and bothers me immensely that poling even with bamboo is still not universally prohibited at USEF competitions. But I’ve already had that argument on coth :lol:

i believe poling and offsets are prohibited now on show grounds for a while. Didn’t used to been off days. Has been for a longer while on show days. But I have been out of the loop for a long time, not sure what the modern rules are but I can’t think they loosened them.

[fordtraktor]

@vxf111

WP trick and an old one. Saddle the horse up, tie the halter tightly to the stirrup iron.

Halter? You mean bit.

[vxf111]

@fordtraktor

Halter? You mean bit.

Yes, sorry, tie the bridle to the iron.

I have to say this was so big back in the day, I saw people do it not even as “punishment” or to tire the horse out but because they believed horses should be tolerant/biddable and stand like that for hours because the trainer thought they should. We (in that world, not me personally) also did bleeding, withholding water, and tying up heads in the APHA/AQHA world. Lots of that stuff. Sometimes for punishment and sometimes to tire them out and sometimes to teach the horses to “submit.” It was gross. Lots and lots of blocked tails too.

WP folks also used to tie the head really low and then ride the horse until it literally “crashed.” That was one way to get the ultimate peanut roll look.