Yes, I’m fairly certain someone got a call from a lawyer.
again, a simple rule change to make a bleeding mouth an immediate dq would eliminate all of these defenses coming from sponsors and national federations and cousins that competing a horse with a cut and foamy bloody mouth is ok because the rules say it is.
None of this should have been necessary. if the officials had just done their jobs, ML would have taken a yellow after the first instance and d a sit down after the second and would have been forced to find a way to ride competitively without it happening again because this isn’t about getting around, it’s about winning.
She’s a good enough rider that she could be successful ie top 10 without all this. But that’s not enough. She wants to win and she can’t figure out how to do that without blood.
I’m angrier at the officials than I am at her.
I’m angry at all of them. 
And the team coach who stood and watched and praised her through the whole ordeal.
This isn’t a perfect study (and it’s according published in a not-so-great journal), but it might be worth folks taking a look at, as it is relevant to the topic. It is open access so anyone can read the entire article:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0154179
It does use a double bridle, but it is possible that the results are generalizable. This group published something in 2017 regarding noseband tightness, so they may have more studies coming.
This is my feeling on the matter.
We shouldn’t need specific rules about blood spurting from wherever. Officials have the power to give yellow cards for any reason they deem necessary; the first bloody mouth would have been a good use of the yellow card system-- a severe warning with consequences of a suspension if the problem continues (guess what, it has!).
I only know two instances where a horse got a bloody mouth. One on long format cci* xc when the horse refused a table, skidding into it and hitting his muzzle on the tabletop, resulting in a strip of upper lip bitten off. Rider was unaware, finished the course fine, vet tended to the horse in the finish box, horse was ok and sound to complete. The injury was clearly not abuse of the bit, though you could argue it was due to poor riding and snarky officials could have issued a yellow card (if they existed back then?).
Only other bloodied mouth I’m aware of happened due to a rider’s carelessness after dismounting from xc. Let go of the reins, expecting groom to take over…but the horse put his head down to rub, stepped on the reins, pulled 3-ring gag through its mouth and lacerated the tongue. Not an instance of riding-related blood, though the injured mouth did cause the horse soreness while it healed.
From my own personal riding, I’ve given two racehorses bit rubs in the corners of their mouths, from an ill-fitting loose ring bit with sharp “wobbled out” holes. It wasn’t my tack, or my choice to use it, but I still felt bad. Despite the crappy bit (and VERY strong galloping horses), there was no blood at all, just a raw spot on the skin of the lip. Easily solved by some ointment and a new bit.
So @AJeventer in your experience would you say that a zero tolerance for bleeding from the mouth would greatly impact the sport? Or would it be basically a non-issue rarely affecting any competitors, less so even than the rules regarding spur rubs that show blood?
Horses have been around for a long time … like centuries. There is something to be said of experience from good horseman.
Bernie Traurig’s take on bits and biting. And pain in the mouth. Horse cannot work right with pain in the mouth.
Exactly and all they have to do is look at some of the stories to come out of other breeds and disciplines to see that it will eventually catch up to them and the fallout to the sport as a whole will be immense.
Actually some horses are extremely tolerant and have huge hearts. Many will work through the pain willingly.
The pressure on the sponsors is all well and good. I am happy to see people are taking action, and the action is having an affect.
However, I would venture to say that if all of the sponsors on ML’s list went poof tomorrow - and not just poof as a sponsor of Marilyn Little, but poof as no longer in business - the effect on the sport of eventing would be negligible. There are competing products and services that could replace them - and if a near to exact replacement is not available today (e.g. MDC stirrups), there would be soon.
My concern is that pressuring Marilyn Little’s sponsors does little to nothing to convince “the powers that be” that bloody horse mouths and overly tight nosebands should not be accepted as “business as usual” in the discipline of eventing. I’ve emailed a couple of generic USE addresses, but I am wondering if there is a better and/or more direct way to apply pressure there and to the FEI.
Jealoushe as quoted:
“Actually some horses are extremely tolerant and have huge hearts. Many will work through the pain willingly.”
What kind of comment is that? I hope you aren’t oblivious to a horse’s pain … no wonder we are in this situation. A rider should be able to see (on the ground) and feel (in the saddle) if their horse is in any pain.
@BaroquePony you misunderstand the point. The point is that many horses are stoic by nature and it is our responsibility as stewards and horsemen not to put them in positions that take advantage of that heart.
Whether you agree with the sponsor approach or not, it’s worth noting that EnviroEquine has gotten over 1000 new page likes just in the 24 hours since they announced their parting of ways. I know of at least 8 people just within my own personal circle that have placed orders with them. I can only imagine they’re flooded at the moment. In a world where public support means a lot, this is something to observe.
I had a horse with a bloody mouth once in my 43 years of riding & eventing. I was 100% certain it hurt like hell, and it was really scary. I was 12 or 13, and off on a winter trail ride by myself with my horse (wearing an eggbutt snaffle and either plain cavesson or drop noseband). We were walking on a loose rein, about 1/2 hour (several miles) from home, when she suddenly didn’t want to move, and broke out in a full-body sweat. I got off, and started leading her. Then I saw foamy blood coming out of her mouth. I was convinced she was bleeding internally and dying. I led her all the way home, including over a semi-frozen creek, and it wasn’t until I untacked her that I saw a cut on her tongue, probaby 1/2" long. That’s all that was wrong with her, and my story ends uneventfully, but even at 12 or 13, I had my horse’s welfare above my own comfort. Maybe my horse was just a drama queen and not at all stoic, but she made it very clear it really, really hurt. I have no idea how she got the cut.
@Denali6298 I think you tagged me by mistake. I didn’t contribute to this thread prior to this point. Thanks
No I tagged you on purpose. This thread is why I think its all lip service.
I found it rather ironic that many of her defenders are saying that instead of criticizing ML, we need to save our negative comments and outrage for the danger that Eventing places the horses in, including course design. The wife of this year’s Land Rover xcountry course designer posted her praise and best wishes on ML’s latest FB post. I do hope she doesn’t read some of the other posts. 
People say horses don’t or can’t talk, if you are around horses and truly understand and care for them, they talk to us all the time. It may not be the conventional words we are used to, but they definately have their own language. One just has to listen. Kitty was talking the whole time at the end of the dressage test. That mare shook her head relentlessly numerous times the whole way out of the arena and it even continued down the walkway on their way out. I have never met this mare and even from afar I could here her saying get it off, get it off!!! I heard her, so did others. Too bad the people in her charge can’t or won’t hear her as well. Sad.
I wish.
What has the fallout been to AQHA? Where many far worse abuses occur. Nothing. most popular breed.
Locally, this week, a horse trader was exposed with a dead horse in his barn and dogs eating other dead horse bones. What was the fallout? Animal control/police found hay and water, no action. Apparently this man has been doing the same for decades.
this is a tempest in a teapot compared to what horses suffer every day in our country. Is it OK? No but I wish we had more focus/prevention on the worst perpetrators of abuse. None of it is OK but geez. It feels like equine privilege compared what others suffer.
This exacty.
Calling for new rules when the rules we have would already be a very effective way to handle the situation but aren’t being applied is letting our leadership and officials off the hook. They own this dumpster fire for not having the integrity or fortitude to apply the rules as written. This situation is NOT ok per our mission and rules… It is NOT ok to abuse your horses’ mouth and there is NOT a loophole in our existing rules that prevent this from being addressed. Creating more rules for officials to ignore won’t solve anything.
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