Marilyn Little's horse bleeds yet again. Red rag to a groom.

[Sticky_Situation]

I think it’s fair for blood elsewhere than the mouth to only be elimination at the discretion of the GJ, because a small amount of blood from brush, or even stumbling and interfering is not only essentially harmless but can clearly be seen to have not been caused by the rider.

Blood in the mouth is a bit different, because although it’s certainly possible that a horse can bite its lip or tongue due to a stumble it’s tougher to be 100% confident that the rider and/or bitting setup didn’t contribute to the issue, even if the actual injury is extremely minor.

I’d be in favor of blood in the mouth being an automatic elimination, and leaving blood elsewhere to be eliminated at the GJ’s discretion.

[findeight]

What got me here was she apparently went into the start box with blood, which was noticed, but was allowed to start. That’s what I understood from what I’ve read, perhaps more info will follow about why. I’m not naive and realize s*it happens when covering terrain at speed over solid jumps, will wait and see if there is hard evidence the mare hit her nose on an element of #3 or fell on it landing. But I am also not naive about what goes on backstage or at home outside of " neutral" observation or why one rider had bleeding in or around the mouth several times on this horse and several more on other horses yet was allowed to start with blood in or around the mouth (if that’s a fact). Huh?

Its the old hobby club thing, just like HJ, there is really no meaningful enforcement possible unless a state law is broken and law enforcement can take over.

On rethinking, I think keeping the mares current name will work just fine. It is Scandalous after all. As in your face as the red towel thanks to the money and politics behind it.

[roseymare]

What if the source of blood is in the mouth but not attributable to the bit?

Just playing devils advocate here.

I would tend to say that it is what it is and even though some will be out due to accidents, the value in not having blood seen in the mouth is worth that.

I just have the feeling that it wouldn’t be to this point if the situation had been addressed better at the onset.

[Sticky_Situation]

@roseymare

What if the source of blood is in the mouth but not attributable to the bit?

Just playing devils advocate here.

I would tend to say that it is what it is and even though some will be out due to accidents, the value in not having blood seen in the mouth is worth that.

I just have the feeling that it wouldn’t be to this point if the situation had been addressed better at the onset.

That’s exactly why I think blood in the mouth should be an automatic elimination, versus (obviously minor) blood on a leg, flank, etc.

Even if the cut on the lip or cheek isn’t directly underlying the bit, it’s harder to confirm that the bit, noseband or the the rider’s hands didn’t in some way contribute to causing the injury … versus, say, a minor cut on the flank from grazing a fence.

[findeight]

Actually not in favor of blood in or around the mouth being an automatic DQ, it does happen. But it needs thoughtful review and repeat occurances with the same rider need investigation. If she was bleeding at the start box, realize that’s a snap decision with no time to review but…for crying out loud, it’s not the first time. Yes, mare could have something else causing it but what about the other horses she’s been on that were bleeding?

Didnt we have a thread on here last year about somebody getting a warning at a less prestigious event over a too tight noseband? Was this ever even explored by anybody here?

[beowulf]

@roseymare

What if the source of blood is in the mouth but not attributable to the bit?

Just playing devils advocate here.

I would tend to say that it is what it is and even though some will be out due to accidents, the value in not having blood seen in the mouth is worth that.

I just have the feeling that it wouldn’t be to this point if the situation had been addressed better at the onset.

A nice counter-argument, except it’s not just this horse that has blood.

[Sticky_Situation]

If I understand correctly, the reason she was allowed to start was that the horse’s mouth was wiped off prior to being examined at the start and a minor cut was found away from the bit that was no longer actively bleeding.

I would put money on whatever mechanism initially caused the bit lip/blood in warmup having recurred on XC (not necessarily due to her hitting her nose during a stumble — maybe just a fussy moment combined with a tight noseband), aggravating the original cut causing it to start bleeding again.

[flyingchange]

Yes, a rider got a yellow card at Virginia - I think the one star - for a too-tight noseband. A couple of weeks after ML came off XC at FH *** on a horse with a bloodied mouth (and she won that event). At Virginia, Sara Kozumpluk also got a yellow card for illegal spurs. Coincidentally, Sara had written a lengthy FB post in the time between FHI and Virginia in which she condemned ML for the bloody mouths on her horses. I am sure the timing was a coincidence but nonetheless, a little weird.

[CanteringCarrot]

@beowulf

A nice counter-argument, except it’s not just this horse that has blood.

Yes, exactly. We as horse people know that sh*t happens. We’ve all seen some weird things over the years I’m sure, but this is multiple horses and multiple occurances. This is a problem.
​​​

[roseymare]

@beowulf

A nice counter-argument, except it’s not just this horse that has blood.

Sorry I was replying to the automatic DQ for blood in mouth comment. There will be some where the bit is not at fault and it is an accident.

And as to the recurrence that is why I think it should have been dealt with sooner and now we are where we are. You would think disciplines would pay attention to what has occurred in other disciplines/breeds. But alas they do not seem to be able to do that.

[Bethe_Mounce]

Blood in horses’ mouth is grounds for elimination regardless of when it happened. Blood appearing AT a competition is grounds for elimination. Marilyn has a history of blood. Where is USEA and USEF??? I saw the pic of the flash nose band used at the jog…the tightness is cruel. I don’t know Marilyn nor do I want to but there is something seriously wrong with her need to win at all costs.

[ladyj79]

Nobody means to leave a spur rub, and I’m sure ML doesn’t mean to consistently make her horse’s mouth bleed. As no one else appears to be unable to bloody their horse’s mouth on course, a hard and fast rule on blood in the mouth seems like a pretty fair idea. She does not have this problem in show jumping, I think she should just go do that exclusively.

[MintHillFarm]

How could they allow her to compete in the Dressage with the flash so tight? Who is not paying attention there!!

[Graymaresrule]

@Groom&Taxi

Maybe Kitty is a closeted Appaloosa with esteem issues. Maybe she does have some kind of stable vice that makes her muzzle/mouth more vulnerable to things like this - have known horses that like to rub their teeth against metal grill bars, etc which I feel sure could take a toll on the surrounding areas.

However. There is no place for this type blood incident in clean (clean-ish?) sport. It’s absolutely ridiculous to talk about needing a rule that only white towels can be used at the xc finish.

In this particular case, I think there is kool-aid involved. I don’t know who is the mastermind that’s mixing it, but I think multiple people are dispensing it.

I have one who runs her teeth over her stall bars when she wants to go out. She’s a chestnut mare with sensitive skin. There’s not a blemish on her lips.

[ABitDrafty]

There could be an entire webpage/Facebook page/blog/etc filled with only ML’s questionable horsemanship at this point. Between numerous bloody mouths and cringeworthy tack choices (overkill bits and too-tight flashes) even I lose track of it all sometimes.

[LaurieB]

@Bethe Mounce

Blood in horses’ mouth is grounds for elimination regardless of when it happened. Blood appearing AT a competition is grounds for elimination. Marilyn has a history of blood. Where is USEA and USEF??? I saw the pic of the flash nose band used at the jog…the tightness is cruel. I don’t know Marilyn nor do I want to but there is something seriously wrong with her need to win at all costs.

There is also something seriously wrong with those in authority who are allowing her to win at all costs.

[amb]

@roseymare

Sorry I was replying to the automatic DQ for blood in mouth comment. There will be some where the bit is not at fault and it is an accident.

A while back the dressage world decided that any blood anywhere was an automatic disqualification. Pretty much everyone agrees it leads to really unfortunate disqualifications where nothing untoward took place, but at least everyone’s playing by the same rules.

I don’t like that world for eventing, but I like it better than what I see right now, where everything is a judgement call and we don’t all seem to be held to the same standard.

[WNT]

And now she’s our National USEA 4* champion. Yippee >: (

[subk]

ML’s horses bleed in the mouth because she uses the bit in a way that makes them bleed. In every video I’ve watched of her on xc somewhere on course she sets her left hand against the neck and uses her right hand to snatch the horse in the mouth. Sometimes she uses her whole arm and upper body for the snatch. Typically it’s coming in to a combination after a longer gallop, almost aways with the mouth cranked shut and a sever bit. If you use a whip in a manner that causes (or might cause) a horse to bleed you are set down. If you use a spur in a manner that causes (or might cause) a horse to bleed you are set down. ML regularly, repeatedly and reliably uses a bit in a manner that causes (or might cause) a horse to bleed. It isn’t the blood, it is the snatch. Someone should drag her out of the saddle by her ear and give her what for for doing it–instead she’ll go to the WEG and be an embarrassment to us.

[Lori_T]

I believe it is time that a letter campaign needs to be started, with the USEA, USEF and FEI receiving many angry letters. They need to know that the majority of their membership is not going to put up with this blatant excuse. Do we really want ML representing us at WEG? Because that could be a very real possibility.
And I too am disgusted at those who continue to support ML. When I see photos of her on IG or FB, I deliberately do not like that photo. Those are the times that I wish IG had a dislike button!
I found it interesting that Roxy and Nobilis 18 were held this morning, due to “concern over their well being.” Really? I wasn’t there, so maybe it was justifiable, but how can they overlook tight nosebands and bleeding?
And one last thing, this is a really good article about ML:
http://www.grandprix-replay.com/us/article/4062/marilyn-little-legitimate-questions-or-witch-hunt-