Mark Philips needs to retire as a CD

[SevenDogs]

Accidents and deaths on his courses are way too prevalent. The governing bodies need to start keeping stats on Course designers, and over time weed out those that consistently have more accidents on their courses than their colleagues.

I am a HUGE proponent of rider responsibility and the need for riders to know their partnership skill level (horse and rider, individually and together) and act accordingly. I am NOT a fan of dumbing down courses so everyone can skip around Advanced and competitions become a dressage show or a dressage/SJ combined test.

Courses should provide challenges that result in penalties that weed the best from the rest BUT THIS CAN BE DONE SAFELY. There should be stops, refusals and run-outs. Eliminations and riders choosing to retire should be a part of the game. Heck, I’m even ok with minor rider falls. I am NOT ok with horse falls and serious injuries and deaths.

Good course designers can create the correct scenarios consistently. Derek DiGrazia comes to mind, but there are many more. Mark Phillips has demonstrated time and time again that he can or will not do this. Look at every major time period that eventing has experienced significant accidents and you will likely find his name somehow involved.

ENOUGH!!! How many more times are we going to have to endure Mark Phillips quotes of how surprised he is that things went wrong? Why is there no process to track stats per CD and why is the only safety net we have to rid ourselves of bad CD’s, is that organizers figure it out and stop hiring them.

Mark Phillips: if you truly are “sick to your stomach”, do the right thing – toughen up cupcake and step down!

[Jazzy_Lady]

I think you need to back off the internet and respect the fact that there are people out there grieving the loss of lives. Let’s not burn CMP at the stake right now.

[SevenDogs]

Sorry, but I disagree.

I am not interfering with anyone grieving. I did not post on a thread designed to post condolences. Instead I started a new thread on a topic that needs attention. We need to police our own sport and make changes.

I am willing to accept any flaming arrows coming my way in order to say something that needs to be said.

[Jazzy_Lady]

Benjamin died at a straight forward fence that had been on the course for five years. Accidents sometimes happen.

[SevenDogs]

Indeed accidents do happen and that may be the case for this rider.

All that aside, if stats existed, I GUARANTEE Mark Phillips name would pop up a statistically significant number of times.

This thread isn’t about one accident (and I send my condolences to all connected with those involved this weekend). It may have spurred me to start the thread, but this is about a pattern over time, that is risking horse and human lives and damaging the sport.

[todaysspecial]

I was saddened to hear about this latest accident.

Now, I’ve never evented in my life, so I have a couple of quick questions… Does this course designer indeed have a high number of injuries on his courses? And, if so, is it perhaps because he designs a high proportion of the courses at this level?

[SevenDogs]

We don’t know for sure because stats are not kept, but I would be willing to bet a lot on it, even weighted for frequency of design/number of courses. There’s a reason some venues switched designers and some riders avoid his courses.

There is just no reason for stats not to be kept. Yes, they have to be weighted correctly and run over time to show a trend (to account for rider error, etc), but there should be accountability. At the very least, organizers should be able to access the info to help select a CD for upcoming events.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=SevenDogs;7623463]
Indeed accidents do happen and that may be the case for this rider.

All that aside, if stats existed, I GUARANTEE Mark Phillips name would pop up a statistically significant number of times.

This thread isn’t about one accident (and I send my condolences to all connected with those involved this weekend). It may have spurred me to start the thread, but this is about a pattern over time, that is risking horse and human lives and damaging the sport.[/QUOTE]

As I’ve posted several other places, I think the time has come that the whole premise of the upper levels of this “sport” need to be questioned. I fully expect to be flamed–but the questions need to be asked when this many people and animals are dying needlessly in their prime for a “pastime.” This has become a gladiatorial contest.

[nomeolvides]

What an awful thread

[SevenDogs]

I actually disagree.

You don’t throw away the baby with the bath water. We just need to be willing to get fresh bath water more frequently.

I have said it for over 20 years. We need to police our own sport.

[SevenDogs]

You may think it’s an “awful thread”. I think it is too. It is also a necessary discussion IMO. It has gone on way too long.

[canterlope]

[QUOTE=SevenDogs;7623481]
We don’t know for sure because stats are not kept, but I would be willing to bet a lot on it, even weighted for frequency of design/number of courses. There’s a reason some venues switched designers and some riders avoid his courses.

There is just no reason for stats not to be kept. Yes, they have to be weighted correctly and run over time to show a trend (to account for rider error, etc), but there should be accountability. At the very least, organizers should be able to access the info to help select a CD for upcoming events.[/QUOTE]Actually, stats are kept. At least they were when I was still on the Events Committee.

[SevenDogs]

Interesting Canterlope. Were they available to all members or ?

[lizloveshorses]

[QUOTE=Jazzy Lady;7623449]
Benjamin died at a straight forward fence that had been on the course for five years. Accidents sometimes happen.[/QUOTE]

From EN:

Capt. Phillips then addressed the history of falls at this fence: "There have been two falls there in the European Championships (in past years) — Andreas Ostholt and Andreas Dibowski.

Accidents do sometimes happen, but when they happen three times at the same fence since 2011, perhaps we should call it a duck.

ETA: According to the 2011 Eventing Championships at Luhmuhlen, Sarah van Hasselt had a fall at the same fence as both Andreas’ above. So that’s four falls at the same fence in 3 years.

[Foxtrot_s]

One report said he had already completed the course once on his other horse “Wild Thing”, if that makes any difference. A sad, sad day for the sport.

[DoubleTwistedWire]

@lizloveshorses;7623517

From EN:

Accidents do sometimes happen, but when they happen three times at the same fence since 2011, perhaps we should call it a duck.

This is Fence 20, per the EN photo course walk posted earlier in the week. It doesn’t look like a particularly tricky fence IMVHO. Can anyone provide some insight into why it’s historically been the cause of falls?

[saje]

A lot depends on what came before it.

What is the terrain on approach, is it just after a hill or a turn? Was there a long gallop to it? Was there a challenging combo just before it? Is there something that could cause the horse to lose power or focus? Is there something that would cause the rider to misinterpret the horse’s balance?

It looks from that angle like a big wide table, but it may ride very differently, and may look very different depeding on the time of day and the light on it.

[vineyridge]

Does anyone know if the actual rain came that was a possibility for today per something I read? If it rained or had recently rained that might change how the fence should be ridden.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=DoubleTwistedWire;7623561]
This is Fence 20, per the EN photo course walk posted earlier in the week. It doesn’t look like a particularly tricky fence IMVHO. Can anyone provide some insight into why it’s historically been the cause of falls?[/QUOTE]

To a horse, this fence may look like a bank-up, drop-down option. It is not clearly ramped, and is flat – and, I think historically (and in my experience) horses have a harder time gauging ‘flat’ fences (tables, corners, etc) than their ramped counterparts. I hear more about deaths, injuries, RFs, etc, on flat-type fences than others. A horse’s depth perception IS different than humans’, and something like this that looks straightforward to us is going to be perceived very differently to a horse.

[lockedoutalter]

I am beyond devastated for the riders, their families, and the people who loved them.

That said, I have to agree that CMP needs to go away. 5 years ago he was the CD at Luhmuhlen and the first 10 riders out if the gate either retired or were eliminated. He does not have the rider’s or horse’s best interest in mind. He thinks crashes bring exitement to the sport and he has taken too many lives.

http://www.countrylife.co.uk/countryside/article/530133/Interview-Captain-Mark-Phillips.html