Mark Todd may be in trouble

[subk]

Much of what they just did on XC is so subtle that they may as well be reading each others’ minds. They are so attune to each other that it really isn’t necessary to actually pet them for the horses’ to know their riders are pleased with them. Mostly I think the big physical affection in a time like that is about the rider expressing themselves or just for show, not about honest communication with the horse.

Walking a Rolex course with his riders a few years ago Wofford made a snarky comment (as only he can do ) about “beating your horse about the head” for a reward when you get through the Head of the Lake. I nice undemonstrative and undetected scratch on the withers might be the kinder expression of appreciation.

[retreadeventer]

Rule is a rule.
I trust the officials – they are not afraid to tell anyone what they think, in my experience with top level FEI types. They officiate with these guys all the time and they aren’t star-struck.

[skydy]

[QUOTE=subk;6468029]

Walking a Rolex course with his riders a few years ago Wofford made a snarky comment (as only he can do ) about “beating your horse about the head” for a reward when you get through the Head of the Lake. I nice undemonstrative and undetected scratch on the withers might be the kinder expression of appreciation.[/QUOTE]

I agree.
I have often thought that the over demonstrative whacking of the horses neck, seen (mostly) in “pure” dressage, is done for a good photo or for show and not for the horses benefit.
Many of the horses seem startled and/or annoyed by the extreme “patting”.

[Appsolute]

Pretty off topic, but my horse enjoys a good firm patting. She will play, jumping up with her front end, ears pricked forward, and seems very pleased when you give her a firm open handed patting on the neck in connection with a “good girl!” (usually done at a canter, thanking her for a good jump etc).

She likes a wither scritch as well, but it is much more subtle, as is her reaction to it. A firm pat, she seems to say “woo hoo!”

[TheHorseProblem]

I have been unable to watch a replay of today so I missed Todd’s ride, but caught a lot of the XC live on NBCSN. Regarding Will C and Twizzle, I was really irked by his behavior there. He seemed to dismount prematurely right after the fence, so that the groundspeople had to run up to him. He started messing with the tack without holding on to a rein or anything. I know that emotions run high after such a ride, but that was just bad behavior and bad horsemanship.

This was probably discussed in another thread, but that’s my .02.

[Rel6]

Maybe I’m completely remembering wrong but I’m pretty sure Mark Todd gave his horse a ton of love coming down that lane after the finish line. I remember that distinctly because he was the last one to go and the feed (at least the one I was watching) followed him and the horse until the horse was completely untacked. His mount got a lot of pats trotting to their support team before Todd was off his back.

Also to consider: they were both pretty beat. Mark Todd said in an interview he can’t remember having to ride as strong as he did those last few jumps because his horse was so tired, and that he really felt like he had to carry him (I’m paraphrasing because I can’t find the article again.) So perhaps he just didn’t have the leg off of that jump to remind his mount to keep going, and thought a tap or two would reinforce it much better.

Plus all horses have different levels of sensitivity. What might be “omg holy crap what did I do wrong?!” to one horse could be “yea, yea, okay I’ll keep going” to another.

[Rel6]

[QUOTE=TheHorseProblem;6468083]
I have been unable to watch a replay of today so I missed Todd’s ride, but caught a lot of the XC live on NBCSN. Regarding Will C and Twizzle, I was really irked by his behavior there. He seemed to dismount prematurely right after the fence, so that the groundspeople had to run up to him. He started messing with the tack without holding on to a rein or anything. I know that emotions run high after such a ride, but that was just bad behavior and bad horsemanship.

This was probably discussed in another thread, but that’s my .02.[/QUOTE]

Couldn’t it have just been him wanting the weight off his horse’s back as soon as possible? I didn’t see the ride so I can’t judge. But I feel like I’ve seen a lot of eventers who are off as soon as they can be and go right to taking off the saddle and tack and cooling off the horse. Mark Todd left his saddle on the ground while both of them tried to catch their breath.

[skydy]

[QUOTE=Appsolute;6468079]
Pretty off topic, but my horse enjoys a good firm patting. She will play, jumping up with her front end, ears pricked forward, and seems very pleased when you give her a firm open handed patting on the neck in connection with a “good girl!” (usually done at a canter, thanking her for a good jump etc).

She likes a wither scritch as well, but it is much more subtle, as is her reaction to it. A firm pat, she seems to say “woo hoo!”[/QUOTE]

That’s good then. Nothing wrong with that.
You know your horse. :yes:
I have seen some horses that really didn’t seem to like it, and have wondered why their riders would do it. (Sorry, very off topic…)

As for second guessing the finer points of the horsemanship of Olympic event
riders, I pass.
I have never been, and never will be, blessed with that talent and am not qualified to comment from afar.

[Carol_Ames]

SJ start time?

When does it start?

[skydy]

[QUOTE=Carol Ames;6468135]
When does it start?[/QUOTE]

10:30 BST which I think is 4:30a.m. ET.
That is the live BBC feed.
I don’t know what NBC has scheduled…

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=Carol Ames;6468135]
When does it start?[/QUOTE]

NBC live online coverage begins at 2:30 am in California

[Kareen]

To not reward a horse after finishing an Olympic course unscathed is plain poor horsemanship. Whether it occurs in front of the cameras or not shouldn’t really matter.
Agree with who said that about the demo-patting that occurs so much. There might be some horses who get the message but most horses I know don’t like it. Playing in front and bucking may be interpreted two different ways. In my experience more often than not a buck whilst under saddle is a gesture of annoyance but I would hope there is enough understanding between horse and owner to be on the same page there lol
Rules are the rules and if MT violated one he needs to be told so. It’s not about whether or not there was abuse it’s about a rule being there - sensible or not and nobody should be allowed to step over the rules only because he’s a big name or has been doing the job for 30some years.
I’d be disappointed though if there was more than a tap on the wrist.

[Beentheredonethat]

I just finished watching the replay and read this before I saw Todd ride. Really?

I clearly saw him give the horse a tap with the whip after the third to last jump when he came to it a bit bad, and then he did it twice the same way after the horse about tripped at the last fence. After the finish line, he rubbed his hand up and down the mane in praise of the horse. It was very clear and very much in appreciation.

It seems there are actual serious things to pick on.

[kalidascope]

Any updates on repercussions for Mark?? SJ is about to start so no news is good news I guess?

[cyberbay]

I think riders, when in such a public event, like the UL competitions and the O.Games, should make some fuss over their horses.

Lots of people watching equestrian sports don’t completely buy into the high demand of it, and are worried about the horse and if too much is being asked of it. So, to reduce the ‘wince factor,’ riders would do themselves and the sport a huge favor by showing appreciation of the horse. That usually translates into petting the neck, etc.

No, it doesn’t have to be a ridiculous display – even resting a hand on the neck will convey much to the audience.

Also, I also think these upper-level horses are just as business-like as their riders and it’s just a day at the office. I don’t get a pet and cries of approval at 5pm…

[mayhew]

[QUOTE=shea’smom;6467837]
well, I agree Mark did not ride that well, and I thought using the stick was a bad decision. I think it was automatic schooling on his part though.
And call me silly, but Mark, Will C and Andrew N, none of them patted their horses after finishing, dismounting and starting to untack.
I just hate that.[/QUOTE]

I noticed that too. The horse doesn’t know that you’re extra special disappointed because this is the Olympics. All he knows is that he just ran his heart out for you. The LEAST you can do is give the horse a pat.

[ACMEeventing]

Really, how is a tap with the stick so much worse than a poke with the spur? But there is no rule against that. I know we have to coexist with the rules that are in place, just seems like a little common sense ought to creep in.

[fooler]

[QUOTE=ACMEeventing;6468597]
Really, how is a tap with the stick so much worse than a poke with the spur? But there is no rule against that. I know we have to coexist with the rules that are in place, just seems like a little common sense ought to creep in.[/QUOTE]

Great point! So many riders “goose” their after the last fence toward the finish flags. As long as there is “no damage” from the spur all is ok.

Which makes one wonder how is spurring the horse after the last fence makes one a “better or more humane horseman” than a couple of taps with a whip?

[starfish]

[QUOTE=TheHorseProblem;6468083]
I have been unable to watch a replay of today so I missed Todd’s ride, but caught a lot of the XC live on NBCSN. Regarding Will C and Twizzle, I was really irked by his behavior there. He seemed to dismount prematurely right after the fence, so that the groundspeople had to run up to him. He started messing with the tack without holding on to a rein or anything. I know that emotions run high after such a ride, but that was just bad behavior and bad horsemanship.

This was probably discussed in another thread, but that’s my .02.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure I follow? Quickly getting off the horse who has run nearly flat out for over 10 minutes is poor horsemanship? Immediately loosening his tack, so as to strip/cool out the horse as soon as possible is poor horsemanship? I got to be honest…I just don’t follow that reasoning.

As for patting - I think, in many cases, its done largely for the benefit of the rider. I’ve known a couple of horses who really didn’t like being patted, and some others that just seemed indifferent. They were just as happy with a good ride, a ‘good boy’, a scratch and a mint. Which, of course, isn’t to say that some don’t like to be patted! But I’m not about to judge a rider for not patting his horse.

[yellowbritches]

[QUOTE=starfish;6469148]
I’m not sure I follow? Quickly getting off the horse who has run nearly flat out for over 10 minutes is poor horsemanship? Immediately loosening his tack, so as to strip/cool out the horse as soon as possible is poor horsemanship? I got to be honest…I just don’t follow that reasoning.

As for patting - I think, in many cases, its done largely for the benefit of the rider. I’ve known a couple of horses who really didn’t like being patted, and some others that just seemed indifferent. They were just as happy with a good ride, a ‘good boy’, a scratch and a mint. Which, of course, isn’t to say that some don’t like to be patted! But I’m not about to judge a rider for not patting his horse.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. On top of that, with emotions running high (I could lip read poor Will’s sentiments as he crossed), I can see giving myself an extra 10 seconds of breathing room before being mobbed by support crew, coaches, fellow riders, etc. I have been known to ride away from people after a disappointing ride, just so I can compose myself. I could see jumping off a wee bit sooner than planned and taking a breath after having a stupid, disappointing stop at the biggest competition of my life. Will’s a good guy and has always been sweet to the horses when I have been around him…give him a break.

I noticed Toddy’s move…I’m not even sure it connected! It reminded me of jockeys “showing” their horses the whip. Glad it had no effect.

And while I am a big girly-girl and I would be smothering my horse with kisses and loves and hugs and probably tears, I don’t fault anyone for not giving big pats and just getting on with the business of getting their horse cooled off. That’s probably all the horses really care about at that point. They know they’ve done good (have you ever been around a xc machine after a good go? They KNOW), and will revel in it with their humans back in the barn before they probably take a good long nap. :yes: