Okay, I’ll admit that I tend to over-exaggerate sometimes to get a less severe point across- let me just start over from the very beginning:
I ride a young Dutch warmblood who has been showing in 3’ pregreens for a few years. We started transitioning to low level jumpers over the summer with great success. We’re also experimenting with “jumper tack” such as figure 8 noseband a and running martingales. She always goes in a standing martingale but occasionally goes in draw reins, but these don’t work with a figure 8 and she seems to fuss more with a running martingale than a standing (both properly adjusted) Suggestions?
Mac123,
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I’m just curious about what other people have done in similar situations- while my trainer and her trainer are my strongest resources, hearing other people’s stories interest me and I enjoy learning from others.
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my bad, see my above response. We also do lots of practice on the flat- bending, extension, collection, working gaits, etc to help her keep learning self carriage.
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I agree but I can assure you that everything is properly adjusted
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i agree that they are a pulley system- but the pulley effect is not as severe as you’re making it out to be since whenever I do ride her with draw reins, they are very loose and used with a rewarding hand.
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see above response
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I’d be happy to PM you (or anyone else interested) videos from our lessons/shows
Lastly, she really is sensitive, smart and scopes as you described- just still growing up!
[QUOTE=mackieb;8964655]
Once again, if you didn’t see my previous post.
Like I said, I’m not looking to start a fight or anything, but I shouldn’t have expected too much from simply asking a question involving the apparently controversial use of martingales and draw reins, which I agree can be extremely detrimental to a horse if used by the wrong hands. Also, it’s funny, if you search “what are draw reins” on google, the very first thing that pops up is “draw reins and side reins are training aids…”.
Thank you so much to everyone actually giving helpful responses to my original question, I really appreciate it (branching off of that, pryme_thyme could you tell me more about the differences between a Micklem and regular bridle if you see this? I’ve never used one before)!!
For everyone else- please actually take the time to read my responses before throwing around wild assumptions that I’m “improperly adjusting her gadgets”, that I’m using improperly adjusted draw reins and running martingales as “a pulley system” and that I’m now riding “a dangerous horse” (who teaches less experienced riders how to handle “more horse” than they’re used to on a daily basis). If you still believe that (properly adjusted) draw reins and martingales are the spawn of the devil, I respectfully disagree with you and I would invite you up here to ride her yourself and see what I mean, but I’m confident enough in my training that that won’t be necessary. :)[/QUOTE]
How often do you ride her versus the beginner students who are learning to “handle more horse than they’re used to”? It sounds like she’s jumping quite a bit, and as though most of those sessions are in a lesson program with novice riders? So maybe the problem is that she’s ridden poorly most of the time (by the lesson students, not you), and you’re discovering what everyone else on this thread is saying, which is that gadgets (properly adjusted or not) can’t fix bad training. (Your horse is being trained every time someone rides it, for better or for worse).
Moosequito- it used to be once a week, but now a few times whenever I can come home (every 3-4 weeks). I wouldn’t quite say beginners, more like intermediate kids who are used to riding lazier horses and not something as young and high energy as her. Unfortunately, my trainer doesn’t have all the money in the world, especially this year since a horse had to get colon surgery so she can’t afford to keep the mare (or really any of her non-lesson horses) unless she’s useful, which means doing lessons as well- she’s been for sale for a while but hasn’t found a suitable buyer yet. I don’t have the money to board her so unfortunately all I can do is just ride her the best I can whenever I’m home- the draw reins help but don’t fix, obviously. 
[QUOTE=mackieb;8964832]
Okay, I’ll admit that I tend to over-exaggerate sometimes to get a less severe point across- let me just start over from the very beginning:
I ride a young Dutch warmblood who has been showing in 3’ pregreens for a few years. We started transitioning to low level jumpers over the summer with great success. We’re also experimenting with “jumper tack” such as figure 8 noseband a and running martingales. She always goes in a standing martingale but occasionally goes in draw reins, but these don’t work with a figure 8 and she seems to fuss more with a running martingale than a standing (both properly adjusted) Suggestions?[/QUOTE]
Sorry OP, I still think this is an anxiety/training issue. A horse that has spent a few years in the 3’ pregreen hunters (umm you said she’s 6??) should be going quietly and consistently. If she must be used for intermediate lessons then you should forget about moving up on her by the sounds of it. She should go exactly the same regardless of the height. Think Derby horse or equitation horse, not speed class.
Even if you’re offended by some of the comments on this thread I really hope you step back, talk to your trainer, objectively look at the horse and it’s program, and come back to basics.
[QUOTE=mackieb;8964925]
6) I’d be happy to PM you (or anyone else interested) videos from our lessons/shows[/QUOTE]
GoodTimes, ^
Well, not to pile on, but I don’t really see how a properly adjusted running martingale would cause her to do anything at all. It just sits there, with the tiniest of weight on the rein (the rings), unless the horse lifts her head up high - that’s when it comes into play.
I don’t want to make you defensive, but what it sounds like to me is that the mare needs work WITHOUT the standing and the draw reins, to learn to accept some contact quietly and come to her fences politely. It might take a LOT of time, trotting in cantering out, etc etc. But if she flings herself around when you take off the gadgets, that is telling you something.
Multiple sources said that you fit a running martingale by making sure it reaches the withers and we did that- even tried giving her a bit of extra room and it didn’t change anything about how she reacted.
6 is still really young. I agree with GoodTimes. Scope-wise, she may not be overfaced, but being used in a school plus being asked to continue increasing fence height is a lot for a young horse - both physically and mentally.
I am reading this with a great deal of curiousity, trying to learn about draw reins. I have never used them myself and have nothing to offer in advise or knowledge on their use. I hear widely polarized views on them-- they are good, they are bad… I have ridden a horse that was schooled in them on and off (before I began riding it), and the horse tends to suck behind the leg, head behind the vertical, flexed weirdly, and does not ride INTO contact. In the meantime people will comment how marvelous the horse goes, looks, etc. It is a weird feel up top. Is this way of going from draw reins used incorrectly? Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread… just curious.
In general does she “give to pressure” well both on the ground and under saddle? Some horses who haven’t learned this will respond to consistent pressure (like from the running when she raises her head) by pulling back against it hard.
kashmere- when she gets used in lessons, 90% of the time it’s an IHSA/IEA kid who’s riding in the 2’ or 2’6 division (idk what they’re called, never competed in it) who knows how to balance her and can jump her around courses- it’s not like it’s young kids who can’t do any more than a single crossrail on her 
Sunflower- Yeah, if draw reins are used incorrectly- ie too tight, too often, on a horse that is already soft mouthed, that can easily happen,
RiderInTheRain- yes she will on a good day, but not so much on a “bad” day (been in stall all day, hasn’t been ridden in a few days, extreme weather changes, cold outside, first day at a big show, etc)- those are the days when the standing helps her head from not going up like a giraffe lol.
[QUOTE=mackieb;8964925]
Mac123,
-
I’m just curious about what other people have done in similar situations- while my trainer and her trainer are my strongest resources, hearing other people’s stories interest me and I enjoy learning from others.
-
my bad, see my above response. We also do lots of practice on the flat- bending, extension, collection, working gaits, etc to help her keep learning self carriage.
-
I agree but I can assure you that everything is properly adjusted
-
i agree that they are a pulley system- but the pulley effect is not as severe as you’re making it out to be since whenever I do ride her with draw reins, they are very loose and used with a rewarding hand.
-
see above response
-
I’d be happy to PM you (or anyone else interested) videos from our lessons/shows
Lastly, she really is sensitive, smart and scopes as you described- just still growing up![/QUOTE]
I’m on my tablet now so excuse my brief response, but I’d be happy to take a look at your videos. I think I can help give better advice seeing what you’re experiencing.
I’ll be able to watch and reply tomorrow!
[QUOTE=mackieb;8965015]
GoodTimes, ^[/QUOTE]
I watched your videos. Cute horse and whoever is riding does a good job sitting quiet and out of the way, but you confirmed what I was thinking. She’s inverted, pulling herself along with her front end, and looks almost maxed out at 0.90m because she’s jumping so flat.
This horse needs to get out of the draw reins so that she can learn to use herself properly. Working and pushing from behind so she can use her abs and lift her back. IMO she’s quick because she knows she needs speed to get over the jumps because she doesn’t have the power in her current program.
Anything related to training a horse is made considerably more difficult by the fact it’s not your horse and there are other riders. This one needs to back up a bit and learn proper self carriage to eliminate the cause of the problems as opposed to slapping a band aid on the symptom of missing training.
The IHSA/IEA riders are one timers of varying ability with almost no warm up. Even if they are decent, and some are-some aren’t, they aren’t going to be able to provide the consistent ride horses need to learn anything. Unfortunately, multiple riders of varying ability do allow bad habits to form and continue.
Horses in this situation are often owned by trainers and expected to generate income via lessons and it is very much business to get them going ASAP. I used to work with some of these, provided attitude adjustment, stopped doing it because whatever I did just got undone.
If you work with something like these, you can’t be too hard on yourself. Try to learn what you can from them and accept the fact there’s things only riders on the same page with the same skills using the same equipment are going to be able to fix. That’s generally not possible for a school type horse. Can you half lease it? That would help.
Obviously not seeing pictures of the horse I wonder about her maturity and ability to handle what’s being asked of her too. My horse isn’t jumped by me but she has just started to jump and compete regularly with a jockey at the age of 8. She goes in various heights of class because she is still learning to deal with the excitement of new venues, anything from 2ft to 3 ft and even over sometimes. We have to gauge each trip as it goes and be careful not to overload her- on her day at a venue she enjoys she eats up courses that are about 3 and a half feet. Other days you can tell she’s more wary and we have to take her right down. She rarely places in little classes- the ponies are much too quick for her- but it’s all about keeping her happy and confident. She goes in an eggbutt snaffle and a running martingale. It’s all she’s ever had and she doesn’t get agitated but she does throw her head in stressful situations such as when I’m riding out and I’m not letting her follow someone’s pony if they’ve decided to go for an unscheduled gallop! Maybe the head tossing is more a sign of her mental state than anything else?
[QUOTE=mackieb;8963705]
We checked various sources to make sure it was properly fitted but it still caused her to suck back more than usual to the jumps [/QUOTE]
You mention that you and your trainer had to check various sources to figure out how to properly fit a running. If your trainer is such a good trainer and in the hall of fame, why in the world do they need to check ‘various sources’ to determine how to fit the gear they’re trying to put on this horse?! Who are these sources, google? Hopefully this was an exaggeration too.
Additionally you also mentioned that you looked up what draw reins are for. I’m going to be harsh here, but anyone needs to look up on the internet on how to use a piece of equipment, then in my book, they most certainly should not be attempting to use that equipment without the help of a professional first.
If looking up how to use this equipment did not mean googling around, then happily ignore me. Although I do agree that all of these issues sound like training issues and the mare may not be very good for the program you’re describing if she needs all of this gear to feign a well behaved, properly schooled horse.
As i said just step back and look at the muscle of the horse. This will tell you everything you want to know and has been confirmed by the poster who saw the video and said she is inverted.
Hall of fame means nothing. Using gadgets means everything.
If the mare is not truely broke to accept contact and follow through with her body? Even the tiny bit of weight from the rings of a properly adjusted RM will get a reaction. I’ve noticed the rings sometimes bounce a bit from the movement of the horse- they feel it and hate it if they are not willing to accept contact.
Failing to understand and accept contact also is a big reason they get inverted, aggravated by too much hand and too little leg from equally uneducated riders. The solution is to drop back.
But this horse’s owner can’t afford the time and lost income off the horse, just tries to contain the evasion with gimmicks. Like I said, you can’t win in a situation like that.
BTW, I’ve used just about every gimmick there is over the years. Some are helpful at specific points in the horses training but none are long term solutions and they don’t really teach the horse anything, just prevent an evasion of the aids. They can be expensive and can cause way more harm then good unless the horse is ready to accept what the gimmick is trying to do and the handler/rider fully understands the whats and whys of using them.
If overused or misused, the horse not only doesn’t stop the original evasion, just develops a new evasion for the gimmick that’s supposed to stop the original evasion. Vicious circle.
But, OP, it’s not all your fault, just the situation and when you are bumming rides? You get horses to ride that are in iffy situations you have no control over. Try to learn what you can from it…and maybe try some lessons from other area trainers or audit a clinic to enlarge your horizon.
