Martingale/Draw Rein Usage

[mackieb]

Hi all!

I’m interested in your opinions/experiences/advice on this topic. I’ve been riding my trainer’s 6 YO dutch warmblood mare for a year now- we started in the prechildrens hunters a year ago, moved to the childrens hunters a few months later and made both of our debuts in the 2’9-3’ jumpers over the summer since the mare has a natural talent for it and it’s something I’ve always wanted to try (all of this was over the course of 4 shows in the span of eight months; I pay for all of my shows with my part time grocery store job so I don’t have all the money in the world). I’m now in college a few hours away so I don’t have the time nor money to show her much, but I hope to do a winter show or two along with a few in the summer in the 3’ jumpers (maybe moving up to 3’3 depending on how we do). She has always gone in a standing because despite the fact that she can go in a frame without, she is easily excitable (ie anytime she gets to jump bigger than 2’6) and needs the martingale to keep her from throwing her head dangerously. She also goes in draw reins (kept loose, looped through martingale and only used at home) only with me and my trainer on occasion.

We tried her in a flash and running martingale when I was home a few weeks ago and the flash was great (she has a weirdly shaped head and gets sores between the bit and noseband if the noseband isn’t a few holes loose, the flash prevents that), but she didn’t love the running martingale so much. We checked various sources to make sure it was properly fitted but it still caused her to suck back more than usual to the jumps (which she already does when she’s spooking) and just caused her to keep thrashing her head whenever I pulled back on the reins or asked to turn, which is counterintuitive to what a martingale’s purpose is. The problem is she obviously can’t go in a standing since you can’t connect a standing to a flash. We refuse to ride her in draw reins attached to the girth without being looped through a martingale since the risk of her putting a leg through a rein is too great. We’ve been debating trying her in a breastplate with the draw reins hooked to that since she’s responded to draw reins extremely well in the past. She doesn’t necessarily need anything too harsh, she goes in a snaffle D ring both at home and shows- just needs something to keep her eyes from constantly looking up at the sky lol.

This is where you guys come in. What would you recommend based on your experience and knowledge? Not looking to start a fight here, just genuinely curious!

[Dutchmare433]

Draw reins etc aside:

If she goes well in a standing, why don’t you just attach the standing martingale to the cavesson as usual and then also attach the flash as you usually would. Just because the flash is attached doesn’t mean the martingale needs to be attached to it, the cavesson is still very much a part of the bridle.

[mackieb]

Oops, just realized- I said flash when I meant to say figure 8. I keep doing that!!

[RolexReady]

For schooling purposes i would still put a regular cavesson noseband on top of the figure eight to attach the standing to.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=RolexReady;8963855]
For schooling purposes i would still put a regular cavesson noseband on top of the figure eight to attach the standing to.[/QUOTE]

Ditto, don’t overthink it.

[GoodTimes]

I would put a regular cavesson over top and keep using the standing, you don’t want a broken nose.

Now saying that I also wouldn’t be moving a 6yo up to 3’3" if they lose their marbles at 2’6".

[showrat2010]

Ditto what everyone else is saying, it’s not unheard of to use a regular cavesson with a figure eight. If you find that to just be too much over her nose, you might also be able to add small fleeces to where the sores are showing up (think halter fleeces that are altered to fit a bridle). I’ve had great success with just a little sewing to alter the size and even trimming the sheepskin down. Just a thought!

[SendenHorse]

Flash and caveson,
The flash was invented as a way to use a standing while having something around the muzzle.
Am I missing something why you can’t do this?

No draw reins, ever. I don’t even like martingales, personally

Classical Dressage.

[pryme_thyme]

Have you attempted a different type of bridle, maybe a micklem?
A friends horse is excitable over the bigger fences, he does well with Micklem and no martingale.
Martingales have a place though. I would be tempted to either get her over the running martingale issue. I am a big believer in, ‘if it isn’t hurting them and they are still making a fuss, they will get over it’.
Obv eliminate pain first.

Not to flame you at all! Just my two cents, I would wonder if this mare has been pushed a bit beyond her comfort zone which is why she is THAT excitable over 2’6+.

[Mac123]

Sorry, this sounds like a training / trainer issue. What is your trainer having you do / is she doing with the mare to work on her flipping her head and getting worked up over fences other than strapping her head down?

I’m the first to say a properly adjusted martingale or pair of draw reins can be a great asset in teaching a horse where they need to be or in providing boundaries, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the case in this situation.

I can’t really fault you since you’re doing what your trainer is instructing, but frankly, it all sounds a bit like a trainwreck. The mare falls apart if jumping over 2’6, and instead of staying at the small jumps and teaching her to stay relaxed, low, and to use her body correctly, your trainer is having you add gadgets (martingales, figure eights, draw reins…what next?) and compete at a few levels higher than what it sounds like this young mare should be.

A 6 year old that completely falls apart when jumping over 2’6…is not ready to jump more than 2’6. Period.

A horse that can “go in a frame” (ugh that makes me cringe) but then “throws her head dangerously” without a martingale (which means it’s likely adjusted way too tight) and then “sucks back” and “thrashes her head dangerously” when using a running martingale (making me think it’s also adjusted way too tight) likely needs a break from all the likely improperly adjusted gadgets and rather needs some good, proper empathetic riding that stays at the basics for as long as it takes for the mare to relax and learn her job in a happy manner.

[mackieb]

Thank you so much for the quick responses! It seems like a few of you are misinterpeting when I say that she is excitable over bigger fences- probably should have clarified why, and that’s my own fault. The mare is also in a lesson program where she’s used for intermediate-advanced riders as well as for IEA/IHSA lessons. In those lessons, she really only gets to jump up to 2’6 and I am the only one who regularly jumps her above that- she honestly just LOVES her job (recently bought a photo cd from a show with 40 pictures, ears were up in every single one) and just gets really excited when she gets to jump bigger and especially when she gets to go fast in jump offs! I guess “throws her head dangerously” was a bit of a misrepresentation, it’s more like “throws her head out of excitement and gets a little carried away sometimes” lol (especially during the cold months). It’s just her personality and way of going that will improve with more work and growing up. She just finished up her second pregreen year- I’ve been spending the past year jumping her 3’ with occasional 3’3 singles in lessons and she has been improving leaps and bounds (no pun intended) just with consistent work over that height. Her brother (who is a consistent winner in the high performance hunters and USHJA national derbies with the original breeder) was the same way in developing a bit late, I’ve been told.

Also, just a side note, the trainer who helps my trainer out with her young horses every week is a member of the Show Hunter Hall of Fame, so I can assure you that she has superb guidance and knows how to properly adjust a martingale and draw reins.

[SuzieQNutter]

She is being trained with gadgets. Draw Reins and martingales being used as training aids.

This goes against everything.

A running martingale should not have any affect whatsoever unless the horse’s head goes too high. If you 'pull back on the reins", it should not be short enough that there is a ‘v’. Otherwise you have a pulley system.

Draw reins are a pulley system.

With the gadgets and they way you are using the martingales you have pressure on her. Horses learn from release of pressure. She has a release of pressure with the martingale draw reins release and she can move her head up.

Not only are you teaching her to put her head higher, but the gadgets pulling against her are developing her muscles so that without them she will go higher than she did before they were put on and you are in danger of being knocked unconscious. You are now riding a dangerous horse. Not a horse ready to be moved up the levels.

These are the quick ways of training a horse. They end up being the long road.

If it was me I would stop jumping the horse and work on the correct training of the horse so that it does not flip it’s lid. This will not happen overnight.

Just step back and look at your horse. If the muscle under the neck is bigger than the muscle at the top of the neck. The she looks ugly and wrong. That is one way of listening to the horse.

JMHO. from someone who has never met you or your horse and is on the other side of the World. I am not being mean. You are being trained. You need to pick who trains you.

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=Mac123;8964265]
Sorry, this sounds like a training / trainer issue. What is your trainer having you do / is she doing with the mare to work on her flipping her head and getting worked up over fences other than strapping her head down?

I’m the first to say a properly adjusted martingale or pair of draw reins can be a great asset in teaching a horse where they need to be or in providing boundaries, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the case in this situation.

I can’t really fault you since you’re doing what your trainer is instructing, but frankly, it all sounds a bit like a trainwreck. The mare falls apart if jumping over 2’6, and instead of staying at the small jumps and teaching her to stay relaxed, low, and to use her body correctly, your trainer is having you add gadgets (martingales, figure eights, draw reins…what next?) and compete at a few levels higher than what it sounds like this young mare should be.

A 6 year old that completely falls apart when jumping over 2’6…is not ready to jump more than 2’6. Period.

A horse that can “go in a frame” (ugh that makes me cringe) but then “throws her head dangerously” without a martingale (which means it’s likely adjusted way too tight) and then “sucks back” and “thrashes her head dangerously” when using a running martingale (making me think it’s also adjusted way too tight) likely needs a break from all the likely improperly adjusted gadgets and rather needs some good, proper empathetic riding that stays at the basics for as long as it takes for the mare to relax and learn her job in a happy manner.[/QUOTE]

Amen to this.

[mackieb]

[QUOTE=mackieb;8964589]
Also, just a side note, the trainer who helps my trainer out with her young horses every week is a member of the Show Hunter Hall of Fame, so I can assure you that she has superb guidance and knows how to properly adjust a martingale and draw reins.:)[/QUOTE]

Once again, if you didn’t see my previous post.

Like I said, I’m not looking to start a fight or anything, but I shouldn’t have expected too much from simply asking a question involving the apparently controversial use of martingales and draw reins, which I agree can be extremely detrimental to a horse if used by the wrong hands. Also, it’s funny, if you search “what are draw reins” on google, the very first thing that pops up is “draw reins and side reins are training aids…”.

Thank you so much to everyone actually giving helpful responses to my original question, I really appreciate it (branching off of that, pryme_thyme could you tell me more about the differences between a Micklem and regular bridle if you see this? I’ve never used one before)!!

For everyone else- please actually take the time to read my responses before throwing around wild assumptions that I’m “improperly adjusting her gadgets”, that I’m using improperly adjusted draw reins and running martingales as “a pulley system” and that I’m now riding “a dangerous horse” (who teaches less experienced riders how to handle “more horse” than they’re used to on a daily basis). If you still believe that (properly adjusted) draw reins and martingales are the spawn of the devil, I respectfully disagree with you and I would invite you up here to ride her yourself and see what I mean, but I’m confident enough in my training that that won’t be necessary.

[rb5007]

[QUOTE: If you still believe that (properly adjusted) draw reins and martingales are the spawn of the devil, I respectfully disagree with you and I would invite you up here to ride her yourself and see what I mean, but I’m confident enough in my training that that won’t be necessary. :)[/QUOTE]

From GMH’s recent clinic:

Morris said, “You don’t get educated hands using draw reins,” and added that he has not touched draw reins in 50 years. The consequences of draw reins are grave he said—a dead mouth, over-flexed and lame.

“The quickest way to cripple a horse is using auxiliary reins,” Morris said, such as a chambon, draw reins or an over-short martingale. “If you work a horse properly, the vets won’t like it,” he laughed as he linked correct riding to soundness.

Although I never use them, I can understand using draw reins once in a blue moon for safety reasons but I have never seen anything good come of them being part of a regular “training” routine.

[OTTB2]

If draw reins worked you would see every horse in them, forcing a horse to do something is not teaching it anything.

[Cascades]

A standing martingale doesn’t have a single thing to do with “going in a frame” unless it’s being used in a hugely incorrect manner.

Also, I’m quoted in a sig line - go me! :lol:

[Mac123]

[QUOTE=mackieb;8964655]
Once again, if you didn’t see my previous post.

Like I said, I’m not looking to start a fight or anything, but I shouldn’t have expected too much from simply asking a question involving the apparently controversial use of martingales and draw reins, which I agree can be extremely detrimental to a horse if used by the wrong hands. Also, it’s funny, if you search “what are draw reins” on google, the very first thing that pops up is “draw reins and side reins are training aids…”.

Thank you so much to everyone actually giving helpful responses to my original question, I really appreciate it (branching off of that, pryme_thyme could you tell me more about the differences between a Micklem and regular bridle if you see this? I’ve never used one before)!!

For everyone else- please actually take the time to read my responses before throwing around wild assumptions that I’m “improperly adjusting her gadgets”, that I’m using improperly adjusted draw reins and running martingales as “a pulley system” and that I’m now riding “a dangerous horse” (who teaches less experienced riders how to handle “more horse” than they’re used to on a daily basis). If you still believe that (properly adjusted) draw reins and martingales are the spawn of the devil, I respectfully disagree with you and I would invite you up here to ride her yourself and see what I mean, but I’m confident enough in my training that that won’t be necessary. :)[/QUOTE]

First of all, if your trainer has such excellent help available to her, you should be having these conversations with her and her own trainer, not a bulletin board full of strangers.

Second, you’re the one who described the mare in a manner that was incredibly unflattering and didn’t nothing but indicate that the mare is being poorly trained and ridden. One of my first questions was what you or your trainer are doing to help the mare develop other than using martingales, flashes and draw reins because you didn’t describe anything other than these methods. You didn’t answer.

Third, one my first comments was that properly adjusted martingales and drawn reins can be useful. Again, based on the impressions you gave, a standing martingale adjusted tight enough to actually prevent head flipping is going to be quite tight. A running martingale that makes the horse suck back also sounds like it is adjusted too tight. And why yes, draw reins are a training aid. So are whips. And spurs. And big bits. That doesn’t mean that those training aids are always used correctly or are always appropriate in every situation or cannot cause harm.

Fourth, running martingales and drawn reins do work as a pulley system. That’s just the bio mechanics. It’s up to the hands that use them to determine whether that’s good or bad.

Fifth, you’re the one who described the mare as flipping her head dangerously any time she jumps more than 2’6 and also thrashing her head around when you touched the reins while wearing a running martingale. As described, those are big issues, and ones that could turn into far more dangerous issues by strapping on more gadgets.

Sixth, there’s a huge difference between excitement and anxiety, though it’s subtle enough that one must be skilled enough to see (or feel) it. Without seeing pictures or videos it’s impossible to tell for sure, but your descriptions do not make it sound like excitement.

She sounds like a sensitive, scopey, smart mare. Hopefully you’ve grossly exaggerated the situation and she isn’t as bad off as she sounds, since it sounds like you have the situation well under control.

[longtimelurker]

[QUOTE=OTTB_;8964679]
If draw reins worked you would see every horse in them, forcing a horse to do something is not teaching it anything.[/QUOTE]

That’s like saying if a standing martingale worked, you’d see every horse in it, if a pelham worked, you’d see every horse in one, etc. A gag worked great for my particular horse at a particular time…that doesn’t mean I’m going to throw it on every horse I ride.

Unfortunately, in the horse world, there are very few universals.

[partita]

George Morris. Smart man. Knows a thing or two.