"Meanest Stallions in History" thread ...

[RacetrackReject]

[QUOTE=3horsemom;7664701]
This is a fascinating thread.
Vineyridge…I think you may be referencing the tragic accident at Holly Hill a few years ago. The horse, Indian Artifact, is a complete sweetheart. I had the pleasure of leasing him for a while. We were at that horse trial. A bad thunderstorm developed. As the owner was opening the stall door, a clap of thunder and a bolt of lightening struck near the stabling. Indy spooked, knocked her down and stepped on her chest. I do not remember if she died on the way to the hospital or later. It was horrible, horrible and a reminder that even the gentlest of horse can kill you.
Anyway, all this to say, Indy is a gentleman and a joy. The family always accepted that it was an accident and in no way due to Indy’s behavior.[/QUOTE]

I was just about to post the same. It was a horrible accident, but it was an accident.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Man O’ War was known to be savage, as was his son War Relic. And I even think the grandson Relic had his moments.

This statement is just not true, as several have indicated.
I’ve posted a picture before, but watch this short video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lrOnnRl8qQ&feature=related

How many TB stallions now standing in Kentucky would you let a lad feed by hand?

This also includes a video, and the magazine cover photos:

http://thevaulthorseracing.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/a-living-flame-will-harbut-and-man-owar/

"It was Will who brought him to the breeding shed or led him out to meet the steady stream of admirers who came to visit. And it was Will who reminded him to be gentle with the children that brought him a carrot or a lump of sugar and Will who admonished him to behave himself, which he did by snapping the shank and demanding, “Stand still, Red” or “Stop fidgeting, Red” or “Stop messin’ around, Red.”

I think sometimes, people equate high-strung and willfull with nasty. MOW grandsire, Hastings, had the reputation. Fair Play was also high strung but I’ve never read an account of him being really mean. War Relic, have heard some stuff about him.

Horses you couldn’t push around, check. But then, I’ve known a strain of QH that were more TB-like that way that weren’t popular with some. They weren’t mean, just wouldn’t put up with stuff. Was it Neartic or Nasrullah that a farm owner had it out with? Yet, seems that behavior didn’t necessarily carry the “nasty” that the high strung of the Fair Plays got. Different times, I guess.

Fair Play:
http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/FairPlay.html

It sounds like Fair Play soured on racing and may have been difficult to handle, but I’ve not run into stories of him savaging anyone. Indeed, this seems to indicate quite a bit of respect and admiration for the horse:

“Fair Play’s breeder and owner August Belmont died in 1924 and his Nursery Stud was put up for bid in stages. At the final dispersal sale of bloodstock, the 19-year-old Fair Play was purchased by Joseph E. Widener for $100,000 and moved to Widener’s Elmendorf Stud, on the Paris Pike. Fair Play died in December of 1929, when 24 years old. Widener buried him on a lovely wooded plot of land that became the farm’s horse cemetery, and erected a nearly life-size bronze statue of Fair Play overlooking the graves of the stallion and his “wife” Mahubah (who had died in 1931 and was buried beside him).”

[camohn]

Ribots problem was more than a bran tumor. Have worked with a number of his offspring and they were all difficult to some degree. The worst ones are Ribot / Hail To Reason cross. Dynaformer has had a number of offspring around here, also generally noted as being talented but difficult. Certainly I think stallions are turned out and socialized more than in the past, but some of them it’s genetics too. When we went to Claiborne to see Eddington a couple years ago all the stallions were turned out for the day and we were warned to stay well away from Blame and Arch, that they had been known to reach over a fence and pick someone up with their teeth…

[Mara]

[QUOTE=Catsdorule-sigh;7668555]
[I]

Horses you couldn’t push around, check. But then, I’ve known a strain of QH that were more TB-like that way that weren’t popular with some. They weren’t mean, just wouldn’t put up with stuff. Was it Neartic or Nasrullah that a farm owner had it out with? Yet, seems that behavior didn’t necessarily carry the “nasty” that the high strung of the Fair Plays got. Different times, I guess.

"[/QUOTE]

That was Nasrullah - Bull Hancock got after him with a broom.

[summerhorse]

[QUOTE=Chachie;7656664]
Was Kris S mentioned at all? He’s my stallions sire and from my uunderstanding, Kris S was a nasty SOB. Although he is not popular or famous, I’m told his nastitude was the reason why he didn’t sire as many foals or race as often as his handlers would have liked.IIRC, he would run down anyone he didnt like, which was nearly everyone.
.[/QUOTE]

No, actually he had a reputation for being a sweet, well mannered stallion. He was dead when we visited Win Star but they remarked on how nice he was and how much they missed him (and not just because he was a great sire!) they had a big “monument” over his grave, lots of flowers and stuff. Think they put a statue there later.

[vineyridge]

Check earlier in this thread or on the other one cited, but IIRC, it was Kissin Kris who was supposed to be full of nastitude.

[dressagetraks]

When I went to Claiborne in 2010, we were warned against Arch. Could look but not get anywhere close. He said he was a biter. The stud groom also said that Seeking the Gold, even though retired, was being kept up at the active stud barn because the most experienced grooms were there; they were afraid that he might hurt somebody back in the retirees section. He actually said, “They’re afraid he might kill somebody,” but I wasn’t sure if that was just figure-of-speech exaggeration. They definitely handled him with care, though.

The ones brought out that we could pet and pose with were Eddington and Pulpit. I thought that was interesting since Pulpit had a reputation as a live wire on the track, but he had obviously settled down in retirement. Very quiet.

ETA: Arch. We were being kept back in a circle several feet away here.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk8/dressagetraks/WEG%20Claiborne/DSC03440.jpg

[foursocks]

Interesting thread! I am trying to remember the name of the TB stallion I knew as a kid who was in the first barn I rode at- his name was something Idol. He was a mean SOB- he was a huge black jumper, very successful, owned by a woman who adored him. She was the only person he was normal with- everyone else had to be very careful handling him. One day when the head trainer went into his stall before a ride the horse latched onto his shoulder, picked him up, and started shaking him. The trainer broke his arm trying to beat the horse into letting go. They gelded him soon after but I don’t think it helped. He did win a lot, though!

I remember the adults talking about how his line was known for mean temperaments, and it was truly incredible to see him act like a lamb with his sweet little non-riding lady owner.

[Whitfield_Farm_Hanov]

This thread reminds me of an article I read several years ago in Western Horseman magazine. It was about how several ranchers kept a large number of stallions together thru the winter. I believe they had around 20 of them. Most were active breeding stallions. They said they always had the new young ones come in acting high & mighty so they’d just put them right across the fence from the oldest, wisest stallion that was very calm but would only take so much harassment. After just a few minutes the older guy would scare the bejesus out of the young stallion and put him in his place. Then they’d turn them all out together & would normally have no problems with them. Definitely a different type of horse bred for brains & sense, not for speed at the expense of brains & temperament.

[Dinah-do]

when the PMU industry was active on the Canadian praries the majority of stallions wintered together in groups of say 10 or so. The more aggressive stallion were put together; and the milder studs likewise together. They worked it out I saw some studs with some war wounds when the stallions were first put together but they worked it out. Some of those stallions lived a long time in that set up. I can imagine that those that were rank did not live long. Maybe a good thing.

[CVPeg]

[QUOTE=FineAlready;7662969]
My gelding is by Devil His Due (so Halo is three back in his pedigree):

http://www.pedigreequery.com/isleshowthedevil

Best horse I have ever owned in my entire life, and I’ve had horses nearly 30 years. That said, he would not be a good match for everyone. He’s smart, athletic, talented, and a very fast learner. He likes to be right, and he tries to do what he is asked. However, he requires a very confident handler and you best watch out if he thinks you’ve done him wrong.

He was, frankly, pretty terrifying as a 4 year old. It was a little more than the typical 4 year old defiance. He literally reared every single day back then, lol. I really thought I made a mistake buying him at times. Now that he is 9 and we’ve had time to work out our relationship…I’m telling you…he’s just the very best partner I could ever ask for, even if he is a bit of a badass. ;)[/QUOTE]

Mine is by Abaginone, so he’s a grandson of Devil’s Bag, grt-grandson of Halo… Sire’s dam is Oil Fable, dam of Cara Rafaela - who is Bernardini’s dam. Fairplay is behind her…

I first met my guy at Belmont when buying a small piece of him as a 4yo. He had a tall gal as his groom at the time, and she looked at me kind of crazy like - she was afraid of him.

He was sullen in his stall when racing. But I always had carrots (with tops!) in hand, and was allowed to get to know him. He’d polish them off, then return to his corner.

He had his last two winters while racing off in VA. Was still all business when returning to racing, but not a scary monster.

When he retired, he was just the best guy - smart - stays out of trouble. Think the down time in winters away from the track really helped him. But definitely not a puppy dog in your hands. Opinionated. The description of FineAlready’s above is very much like him now, although my guy still needs some more work/tweaking. Much of his moodiness was attributed to a possible injury. But once he had time off (too much!) and I got hold of him, he just got tougher the fitter he was. Bucking! For sure. Had to have a couple of CTJ lessons.

What he really DOES love is attention - that we all pay it to him, but not crowd him. He really does love people after all. Routine. And people. And turnout.

Opinionated is the best word for him, for sure. But one other thing - boy, is he sensitive to your mood, your confidence. He knows the second someone gets on him and is wary of him. With certain jockeys you could tell he was a bit dejected if they weren’t tuned into him. On the other hand, he really gave his all for those who believed.

I just love him.

[twelvebelles]

[QUOTE=dressagetraks;7674535]
When I went to Claiborne in 2010, we were warned against Arch. Could look but not get anywhere close. He said he was a biter. The stud groom also said that Seeking the Gold, even though retired, was being kept up at the active stud barn because the most experienced grooms were there; they were afraid that he might hurt somebody back in the retirees section. He actually said, “They’re afraid he might kill somebody,” but I wasn’t sure if that was just figure-of-speech exaggeration. They definitely handled him with care, though [/QUOTE]

That’s interesting. I was at Claiborne on a tour last summer, and the first horse they introduced us to for pictures was Arch! He seemed very mellow and was fine to take pictures with. Seeking the Gold was still in the stallion barn being a meanie though; he didn’t even like us looking at him in his stall and made snake eyes the whole time. The other horses we pet were Blame and War Front, the latter who I gave peppermints to and was able to cuddle up with for a picture. He was a sweet boy.

We also went to Three Chimneys. They told us to stay fair back from Sky Mesa’s fence when he was in pasture because he’s a biter. Sure enough someone stayed too close a little too long and he charged the fence to attack. He was the definitely least friendly stallion we met the entire trip.

[fish]

[QUOTE=
Then they’d turn them all out together & would normally have no problems with them. Definitely a different type of horse bred for brains & sense, not for speed at the expense of brains & temperament.[/QUOTE]

I hope you are not suggesting that TB’s have been bred “for speed at the expense of brains and temperament.” Certainly those few horses who, for one reason or another, show promise as breeding stallions despite questionable minds are often given an opportunity to prove themselves-- as are crooked-legged ones-- but, there aren’t many trainers, breeders, etc., who are unaware of how important brains and temperament are to success on the track and few will let such horses continue at stud if they fail to winners pretty quickly. After all, the best racehorses are those who manage to take the high stress/ no turn-out atmosphere of the track in their stride, adapt to a multitude of different riders, handlers, climates, etc., to the extent that they remain rideable/rateable, even (or especially!) while running at full speed while being bumped by others, having sand tossed back into their eyes… Yes, TB’s tend to be more sensitive to the aids than breeds not expected to run(or respond to a jockey) very fast, but that hardly means that their brains have been bred out of them.

Look to dog breeders pursuing show/bench vs. working success to see what brains (and often soundness, too) bred out looks like, not horses who still have tough, bona-fide jobs to do.

Granted, life on the track is hard enough on horses to make it difficult to find OTTB’s without mental and physical soundness issues, but those who do emerge with relatively minor, easily treatable ones often prove to be the sanest, most bombproof and agreeable horses in the barn. (Take a look at Louis’ page on my website for an example.)

[khall]

I worked on a breeding farm where most of the stallions were TWH. The worst one I handled was Pride’s Generator who was the top stallion in their industry at that time. He had put a groom in the hospital before coming to us and went for my face busting my lip after I put him in his stall after collecting. He hated humans and could care less about them. He did pass it on to some of his sons, one who stood there Generator’s Sundrop, but I got along quite well with him, no issues what so ever.

None of the other stallions I handled that were resident stallions were very bad to work with. We did have one come in to collect that took a bite out of me, trainer forgot to mention he did not like loading into a trailer. He caught me as I was loading him after collecting him, went for my face, got my arm instead I still have a scar on my arm to this day. Everyone asks if it is a burn.

Some stallions are bred because they produce not because they put nice handling horses on the ground. Me personally like the nice stallions, don’t like the ones who want to hurt you. I know the TB world is a different world, bred for production/racing not handling. No thanks!

[Gnalli]

[QUOTE=Centuree;4517687]
Was he a lion or a pitbull? That’s weird for a horse, a flight animal, to go for the jugular.

All of this is so strange to me. Horses are herbivores, flight animals. I am not saying I don’t believe it - it’s just I’ve only owned the sweetest horses, and cannot picture any of them turning on me.[/QUOTE]

There was one in TN about 15 yrs ago that just turned one day and ripped out the woman’s throat. I wonder if that was the same one?

A friend of mine got a good horse because his former owner was walking by and Buns caught him by the shoulder and shook him like a rag doll. Made him furious, so he had him gelded within the day and sold within a week to my friend. THis was a good performing horse, but he just lost it one day. He was a little high strung, but never was violent again.

[Sandy_M]

@grandprixjump;4517663

Years ago I was at Glenwood Farms for a short time. She had Diamont, who was pretty nice, but they had a 3yo son of his, that was a HOLY TERROR, you carried a whip into the paddock, and sometimes that wasn’t even enough. To top it off though, when he did that to me, it was my fault, but when he did it to the German working student, the boy was playing…

I’ve heard Diamant stories that paint him as anything but “nice,” and a friend had a Diamant son (gelding), who while not vicious, was a real PITA with a bad attitude about ever doing any real work.

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=Brutust;4525996]
After reading all your messages I sincerely hope that a thread on the “Sweetest Stallions in History” would bring as many responses… It is a good thing to know that we do not find as many sour individuals in todays horse breeding stock, except, perhaps, in the race horse business.[/QUOTE]

A deceased friend - lovely lady - had a huge TB stallion that certainly could win the “Sweetest” award. She was older and overweight most of the time I knew her (though she lost weight as she aged). It only took her and the vet to collect him. She bred him for the track and to non-TBs. He was so mellow it was hard to believe he was a stallion. His name was Royal Roan Tudor. She bred him to an Appy mare that belong to someone else, and ended up keeping the foal herself. He matured to 16.2 and was as mellow as his sire, easy to handle, and another that you’d hardly realize was a stallion. The year Hilda Gurney judged the Dressage Suitability classes at the Appy National Show, that horse won the stallion championship.

Another nominee for sweetest or easiest to handle would sure be the Arabian stallion Fadjur, who was untouched during breeding and handled by voice commands only. I saw him at an exhibition when he was close to 30. He was standing in the arena entrance, shaggy with a winter coat, hipshot, standing on a loose lead. Then the announcer said “And now! The Fabulous Fadjur!!!” Up shot his tail and head and off he went into the ring at an elevated trot, showing off to the crowd.

[dani0303]

My SO and I went on a tour of Lane’s End last summer. Curlin, AP Indy, and Union Rags were all very happy to come out for pats and treats. I actually have a picture of me hugging AP Indy.

Pleasantly Perfect didn’t want to play. The groom walked a little too close to the fence and he made a B-line for it with teeth bared. He was the only one there who appeared nasty though.

[RiderWriter]

What a cool thread! I have only ever been around two stallions on a regular basis, a Paint and a TB. Both were extremely well-mannered boys, who lived right next to mares and geldings in the barn and caused no issues. Yeah, they’d snort and paw a bit if an interesting girl walked by, but nothing terrible, and they could be fed/handled easily. The TB was occasionally bred, live-cover only, and was so good his owner handled him by himself with just a long lead and chain over his nose.

That said, I certainly know of some rank stallions in the TB world, more past than present. Knew about Hastings and Ribot, for sure! I have visited Claiborne (about 12 years ago) and Winstar. At Claiborne I got to pet Pulpit and Monarchos, and admire the Old Man, Danzig, from afar. I don’t recall if we were warned about any of them in particular other than Danny. At Winstar just two years ago I attended an open house, so they brought out the stallions one after another into the viewing area, no petting allowed. I think there was one or two where they said stay back from the stall but not sure who they were.

My favorite place for stallions, though, is Old Friends! ALL the fellas there are approachable, with some more snuggly than others. It is so awesome to see them enjoying life, being “just horses,” in their paddocks. They can see each other just fine so they have a social life, too. My favorite living boy there is Tinners Way, and the deceased Black Tie Affair was a special gentleman, indeed. Anybody who thinks all TB stallions are man-eaters needs to pay a visit to OF…

[Beaver_Breeze]

[QUOTE=dani0303;7683690]

Pleasantly Perfect didn’t want to play. The groom walked a little too close to the fence and he made a B-line for it with teeth bared. He was the only one there who appeared nasty though.[/QUOTE]

He can be a nervous horse, but I don’t believe he is nasty. Everybody has a bad day.