Men - it's not you we're neutering! RANT

[paulaedwina]

But here’s the thing. There are alot of idiots with poorly trained, aggressive, roaming, castrated dogs. There are alot of responsible people with castrated dogs. There are alot of idiots with poorly trained, aggressive, roaming, intact dogs. There are alot of responsible people with intact dogs. A dog’s balls aren’t the determining factor.

As I said too; keep in mind castration is cultural. There are entire countries of responsible dog owners who do not castrate or spay. They are no more doomed to be over run by untrained dogs or paragons of dog training and responsibility.

This is why I say the whole concept that castration is a virtue, and people who don’t castrate are irresponsible, confused, etc. is propaganda.

JMO
Paula

[grayarabpony]

Oh man, it’s not just men. My MIL had a Malamute/ Great Dane mix (of course she also owned the Malamute) and this great big mutt was roaming around spawning all sorts of other mutts. Everyone would have been better off if both males and females had been neutered. He even got his testicles cut up in barbed wire and she didn’t have him neutered. “Won’t he miss it?” she asked my DH. :rolleyes: She was being half facetious but it wasn’t cute.

Paulaedwina, believe me most dogs are better off being neutered. Intact males are more likely to roam than neutered dogs, and the neutered dogs’ urge to run around is trouble enough. Dealing with heats, false pregnancies and mastitis is a pita. Bitches often end up pregnant in spite of their owners’ (usually too little, and not at the right time) precautions. If you fence a dog you need to bury fenceline more than 3 feet down, and the fence better be taller than 5’, for example.

[blackhorsegirl]

This is not just a man thing but a European thing. Some years ago my sister found and adopted a puppy. It was a large lab type dog. She had lived in Switzerland for many years and is more European than American.

Of course, anything Swiss or European in general was far superior to any thing American. When I mentioned neutering, she totally freaked. Obviously, it’s not done there.

Gee, they’re not having many kids of their own and not neutering their dogs. What’s wrong with this picture.

[paulaedwina]

Grayarabpony, her big dog’s behavior can be remedied by vasectomy (rendering him sterile), training, and a fence.

Nothing’s wrong with that picture, Blackhorsegirl. They just do things differently. All it serves to show is that castration is cultural. Heck we could be having the same conversation about human male circumcision.

Paula

[Chester_s_Mom]

PE:

Average dog owners cannot handle their SPEUTERED dogs as well as they ought to, there is no way at this point to intelligently advocate leaving their pets intact hormonally… folks would never do what it takes to keep them safe and healthy. Females bleeding around the house? Males lifting their legs everywhere?

Its about as smart to say that since stallions correctly trained are fine we should only give male horses vasectomies…

:lol:

[Rhyadawn]

[QUOTE=jetsmom;5848465]
I’ve always wanted to sneak up to the parked trucks with those and cut ONE off. They probably wouldn’t notice for a while, and the idea of them driving around with just one ball cracks me up.

Re men/neutering-
I told my DH that there only gets to be one set of testicles in the house, and he can decide between him and the dogs.:lol:[/QUOTE]

This just made my day!!!

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5848943]
Grayarabpony, her big dog’s behavior can be remedied by vasectomy (rendering him sterile), training, and a fence.

Paula[/QUOTE]

You’re leaving out reality. She had an entire acre. Do you know the cost of fencing in that area with a dog-safe fence? And the idea of giving a dog a vasectomy and not neutering him is just laughable. She wouldn’t even pay to have him neutered.

Dogs are better off without the extra testosterone, especially since most people don’t train their dogs very well and that’s a fact.

[Big_Grey_hunter]

[QUOTE=Chester’s Mom;5848975]
PE:

Average dog owners cannot handle their SPEUTERED dogs as well as they ought to, there is no way at this point to intelligently advocate leaving their pets intact hormonally… folks would never do what it takes to keep them safe and healthy. Females bleeding around the house? Males lifting their legs everywhere?

Its about as smart to say that since stallions correctly trained are fine we should only give male horses vasectomies…

:lol:[/QUOTE]

This. Of course neutered/gelded animals are also bad if not trained. Of course trained/contained studs and un-neutered dogs can be wonderful. That doesn’t mean male animals shouldn’t be neutered or gelded to reduce the damage done by stupid owners.

[paulaedwina]

I think you’re right to bring up stallions. There is the same discussion going on there. People talk about castration as “brain surgery” on horses. The issues are similar; there’s no guarantee of good or bad behavior based on the presence or absence of testicles. Intact animals might offer different challenges - in dogs it’s containment, in horses it’s containment. However, in both cases the assumption that somehow castration makes the animal easier to handle is just that -an assumption.

It pretty much comes down to the same thing; if the reason for castration of dogs is the oft proposed control of the population, then indeed vasectomy is a valid and perhaps more reasonable option than castration. It is much easier to control the breeding of stallions as they are generally fenced in.

I guess my issue is that we aren’t taught the truth, not propaganda. Why should it be reasonable to convince the masses to castrate their dogs because some people won’t train their dogs? Why intentionally conflate population control with castration when vasectomy is an option? Why misinform people and frighten them into castrating their dogs by saying the dog will otherwise die of cancer or pee all over the house, or eat the children, or eat the neighbor’s dog? These are all the lines people are fed about why they should castrate. And I think part of the balking is because people know BS when they hear it.

JMO Paula

[Rhyadawn]

[QUOTE=Chester’s Mom;5848975]
PE:

Average dog owners cannot handle their SPEUTERED dogs as well as they ought to, there is no way at this point to intelligently advocate leaving their pets intact hormonally… folks would never do what it takes to keep them safe and healthy. Females bleeding around the house? Males lifting their legs everywhere?

Its about as smart to say that since stallions correctly trained are fine we should only give male horses vasectomies…

:lol:[/QUOTE]

My neighbors have a hound boxer mix. She’s a total hazard every day of the week because they toss her outside for an hour and she roams around the backyards of all the neighbors (I live in the city). Bad enough on a regular day but when she is in heat (because of course they would never spay her) they just tie her up outside in their unfenced backyard because they don’t want the blood all over the house. Then when she’s miraculously pregnant they just can’t figure out how it happened…

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5848996]
I think you’re right to bring up stallions. There is the same discussion going on there. People talk about castration as “brain surgery” on horses. The issues are similar; there’s no guarantee of good or bad behavior based on the presence or absence of testicles. [/QUOTE]

You haven’t spent much time around stallions have you.

[paulaedwina]

You’re right, but interestingly enough, earlier in the year I was considering an OTTB colt and inquired on this forum and found no consensus on stallions just like no consensus on castration. Some were in the camp of “brain surgery” and others were not. The same argument was going on there.

Paula

[Foxtrot_s]

Having spent time in Italy and Switzerland recently, it amazed me how almost no dogs were neutered. There just does not seem to be the campaign there. (Maybe all over Europe?) But I am sure that sometime in the intact dog’s lifetime he will escape and run amok, no matter how responsible and well intentioned the owner is.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5849034]
You’re right, but interestingly enough, earlier in the year I was considering an OTTB colt and inquired on this forum and found no consensus on stallions just like no consensus on castration. Some were in the camp of “brain surgery” and others were not. The same argument was going on there.

Paula[/QUOTE]

That’s because stallion owners want you to believe their stallions always act like puppies.

Managing a stallion so that he’s gets enough socialization without getting injured by a pissy mare, and you don’t have a bunch of little horses running around that are not wanted is a difficult balance. Usually stallions end up suffering in the socialization department, simply because they can breed and this is not always a desirable thing, no matter how nice the stallion is.

[wendy]

But I am sure that sometime in the intact dog’s lifetime he will escape and run amok, no matter how responsible and well intentioned the owner is.

? huh? people in the US who show/sport/breed/work their dogs frequently don’t castrate/spay their dogs. And they don’t have problems- in fact, it’s the irresponsible pet owners with untrained dogs (neutered or not) who tend to have dogs escape and “run amok”. It has nothing to do with the dogs being intact or not. Responsible people don’t contribute to unwanted pets in shelters/homeless pets problems period, nor do they contribute to “dogs running amok” problems. It has nothing to do with dogs being intact or not.

[GotGait]

I have an unneutered show dog that I haven’t shown in years. He has no bad habits and doesn’t roam because I have this thing called a fence. He’s never ever off leash because he is a Shiba.
I have more trouble with aggressive or just out of control neutered dogs (off leash of course) jumping my dog when we are out on a walk. When my dog growls, the owners of the out of control doggies always act all aghast. It drives me crazy. I always want to run up in their face, jump all over them, give em a bear hug, bite their head, and wrestle them to the ground. I mean, I’m just being friendly!
So anyway, I agree that neutering propaganda is mainly used for population control. I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing since, IMHO, most people can’t, or aren’t willing to, control their animals.

I will fully endorse a campaign to neuter trucks.

[Simkie]

@Foxtrot's;5849106

But I am sure that sometime in the intact dog’s lifetime he will escape and run amok, no matter how responsible and well intentioned the owner is.

Um, no. I’ve had intact dogs and bitches and I’ve NEVER had either “escape and run amok.” I’ve never had an “oops” breeding. I’ve even had intact males and females in the same house!

It’s really not that hard. You just have to pay attention and be committed to keeping your intact animal in control. Granted, there are a bunch of people with intact animals who are not committed to keeping their animals under control, but the rest of us should not be painted with that brush…

I believe in spaying and neutering, but if there is a reason to leave a dog intact, and the owner is responsible, that should not be vilified.

[dressagetraks]

After one male dog battle over neutering, my stepmother simply enacted a rule for all subsequent inhabitants. “Nothing else with a penis is ever going to move into this house!” :lol:

Men never object to spaying the females or take that as an anatomical insult, so all is well since.

[paulaedwina]

That’s because stallion owners want you to believe their stallions always act like puppies.

To be sure the 2 stallions I know aren’t puppies, but they aren’t raving lunatic maniacs either. And my boy John Lyons rode an appaloosa stallion. To some that’s a double threat!

I don’t think anyone means to say; balls maniac/no balls angel right? I guess my point is there’s no need to assume people who don’t want to castrate just don’t understand, have some hidden agenda, are uncaring or anything like that. I am not sure my next dogs will be castrated.

Not a male, but I do object to the automatic spaying of females as well. That comes with its own baggage.

Paula

[Megaladon]

@Arcadien;5848835

I think men who grow up around livestock may take it much easier, but for your ordinary city or surburban male it seems too much to take.

I agree with this because farmers realize you can’t have every bull calf kept a bull, and what needs to be done gets done, they band the calves themselves. :yes: