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Men - it's not you we're neutering! RANT

The Menagerie
#41

I had a dog growing up and he was not neutered…until he developed testicular cancer. I guess in his instance, he was healthier without them:D

When you bring up Europe, you must remember that they deal with animals quite differently there. When we had a foreign exchange student from France she was surprised that we arranged for someone to take care of our cat when we went away. Her family would go away for a month and just leave the cats outside! They could eat birds and rodents so why should they need someone to take care of them. And if the cats had disappeared the family would just get new ones when they returned. Don’t know about you, but that’s not how I care for my animals.:no:

#42

[QUOTE=cheval convert;5849385]
I had a dog growing up and he was not neutered…until he developed testicular cancer. I guess in his instance, he was healthier without them:D

When you bring up Europe, you must remember that they deal with animals quite differently there. When we had a foreign exchange student from France she was surprised that we arranged for someone to take care of our cat when we went away. Her family would go away for a month and just leave the cats outside! They could eat birds and rodents so why should they need someone to take care of them. And if the cats had disappeared the family would just get new ones when they returned. Don’t know about you, but that’s not how I care for my animals.:no:[/QUOTE]

Yeah, really, it’s like, what’s the point of having a cat then?

#43

this is from a critical review of the evidence, such as it is: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf

the overall conclusion being: “One thing is clear – much of the spay/neuter information that is available to the public is unbalanced and
contains claims that are exaggerated or unsupported by evidence.”

“On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially
immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated
with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.
On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)
On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations
For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may
exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the
odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the
relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.
On the positive side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common
malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female
dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors
On the negative side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by
a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many
associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs
spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccination”

in addition to the serious health problems noted above, one of the major side effects of neutering a dog before full maturity (age 2 or 3) is the bones don’t grow normally- the growth plates don’t close at the proper scheduled times, leading to abnormal angles between bones, which many people believe increases the risks of the dog suffering from debilitating arthritis and expensive injuries such as CCL tears.
And one of the more ironic aspects of spay/neuter is that the very people who are more likely to have their dogs spayed/neutered (due to being responsible pet owners) are the ones who if they knew the facts would probably choose to not castrate males and would wait until age 2 or 3 to spay females (for the sake of the dog’s health), and wouldn’t contribute in any way to the pet overpopulation problem regardless of what they decided.

#44

Like I said

Propaganda

People have been sold a bill of goods with regards to castration and spay. These campaigns have been so effective that laypeople will excoriate those who choose to go the other way and keep their animals intact.

Paula

#45

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5849335]
That’s because stallion owners want you to believe their stallions always act like puppies.

To be sure the 2 stallions I know aren’t puppies, but they aren’t raving lunatic maniacs either. And my boy John Lyons rode an appaloosa stallion. To some that’s a double threat![/QUOTE]

John Lyons is a very experienced horseman. Dealing with stallions is a lot more difficult than dealing with a gelding. Not propaganda.

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5849335]Not a male, but I do object to the automatic spaying of females as well. That comes with its own baggage.
Paula[/QUOTE]

Oh Gawd my parents didn’t spay their two terriers. They believed spaying made females fat. One terrier died at 9 years of age and the other was spayed at 10 and lived to be 15 1/2. What a pita dealing with the heats. Neither ever got pregnant but that’s because I’m a fast runner. For some reason my mother didn’t seem to understand that a dog is most likely to get pregnant during the heat cycle after she stops bleeding, and that’s when she would stop taking the dog out into our backyard on a leash. :rolleyes:

The majority of unspayed females end up pregnant at one time or another, by accident.

My JRT went through a false pregnancy and mastitis at 9 months. We were just about to spay her when she went into heat and then had milk, and 23 years ago vets didn’t commonly spay when a bitch was in heat or had milk. THEN she got mastitis and was sick as hell for a couple of days. After that she was spayed. If I had to do it all over again she would have been spayed at 6 months.

She needed a low dose of estrogen to control bladder infections after the age of 10 but she lived to be 20. She was never incontinent of bladder except during an infection, and after she was on estrogen she didn’t have any infections.

#46

I have tried to post three times. Maybe 4th time is the charm.

Whoever said they want to cut off one ball from those truck balls and their household is only allowed one set of balls: the SO or the dog. I love you!

I hate those dangling truck balls. And the blue ones? Cough cough why do you want blue balls? :eek:

My stepdad has a serious attachment problem. His lab became Mack-olina. My mutt became Jo-sephina. Now my fluffy froofroo toy breed is the only dog WITH balls and it throws all of stepdad’s stereotypes off. And stepdad is very short and very skinny :wink:

#47

Actually, if we took that figuratively and interpreted it as applying to vasectomies as well, it would be in said SO’s best interest for the dog to keep his, too…(Puppies I can deal with. Infants and human pregnancies? Not so much.)

#48

I find the arguments on this thread perplexing. The exceptions DO NOT MAKE THE RULE! That’s where rules come from.

Sure there are responsibly-kept intact male dogs and cats and stallions. That doesn’t mean that neutering isn’t the best option for 99% of pets.

Is someone FORCING the responsible people to neuter their animals? That is the ONLY circumstance under which I could see these arguments having validity.

Paulaedwina, this is very similar to the off-breed dressage horse argument. I think you are a fine writer and love to debate things. But no matter how you say it, I am NEVER going to think that exceptions trump rules.

#49

In 30 plus years of owning, showing and enjoying my dogs, I have never once had a male dog that had any health related issues to not being neutered. They are housebroken and get along with other dogs even if they are not always thrilled about it. It is amazing what training can do. On the other hand, I am not an irresposible idiot who lets my dogs roam, act agressively, and not bother to train either. When I had my rescue, all dogs, regardless of sex, were neutered before they left. All of my show bitches when they are finished with their show career, or are done being bred, are immediately spayed to prevent pyometria. The reason that all the dogs were neutered from rescue before they left was just mention neutering a male dog to a male human and you could see them recoil in horror with legs crossed. If the dog is already neutered for some reason the men had much less of a problem with it. This prevented any unwanted accidents that would add to already overpopulated dog world. I think men will always have a problem with neutering, it is transference I believe.

#50

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5848246]
Well in all fairness, much of why we castrate is propaganda. For example, all intact males are not aggressive, pee-ers. I think part of the resistance is that the issue is not always addressed honestly. Too often there’s an underlying contempt of male hormones -for example people call castration “brain surgery” or “fixing”.

Just saying.
Paula[/QUOTE]

Well… You could say I (and I bet many others) have a contempt for sexual hormones in my pets, regardless of male or female. I don’t think this is a “contempt of maleness” issue. No one seems to have any issues with spaying females, which affects their hormones just as much.

Really, I rather my pet NOT get horny. I don’t want a horny male roaming the neighborhood, and I sure as hell do not want a horny female in my yard!

Same goes for cats (ummm a female in heat? Thats real fun…) and horses. I wish it was easier to spay my mare. I am all for androgynous pets. I would rather my mare get “brain surgery” that way I wouldn’t have to watch her flip her tail, and back into any thing that moves… :no:

I never hear about women freaking out about spaying their dogs or cats! This a boys and their balls issue to me.

#51

<raises hand>

Okay, I’ll admit it–I would sooner neuter a male than spay a female. Spaying is pretty major abdominal surgery. Neutering is a simple snip snip and no muscle layer has to be cut. I also just don’t find bitches coming into heat troublesome. I prefer females, and haven’t had a male animal in … years. Perhaps if I had more males, I would be more guarded about neutering them.

Granted, I’m not saying I don’t want to spay my girls because of some issue I have with MY overies! :lol:

#52

I think it’s gross that any man would be equating his balls to that of an animal, or concern themselves with what’s going on between the legs of someone elses. Is this a real issue? :lol:

It sounds like the parenting circumcision debate where some men want their sons to “look” like them. But… a child’s penis is not like an adults and it’s pretty darn creepy that they’d be thinking about hanging out naked and comparing parts with their grown child before the kid is even born. Even scarier when you are talking about a dog.

#53

I used to live in the heart of San Jose, CA and regularly took my dog to the large, busy local dog park.

Let me describe for you the “typical” owner of an intact male in urban (“East Side”) San Jose.

Usually the owners were young males, who did not seem to know the FIRST thing about dog training, let alone training their dog “well”.

Spiked pronged collar, on large athletic dog, often some sort of “staffordshire terrier” cross. Chain leash, wrapped many times around the hand (because you know, that makes you look like an experienced dog handler). Dog rearing against the leash, only partially in control.

Dog gets let loose in the dog park… and proceeds to wreak havoc, while his owner chills with his homies.

My small well trained dog got attached TWICE by intact males on separate incidences. The first time, there was a bitch in heat, and intact male was in the park as well, that male was running around FOAMING at the mouth, and attacked my dog as it happened to run by the bitch mr. balls was perusing.

Second time, another intact male became defensive of the water bowls, and bit my guy.

I know, I know, hardly a study, but I NEVER had a problem with the ball less dogs in the park. Those big males, with the hanging balls were the ones I had to watch out for. And I don’t think it is just because the dogs had extra hormones surging through them. I think it had more to do with the type of owner who choose not to “emasculate” their dog.

Sure, there are responsible owners out there, weary of the government, or negative health effects, and choose to not neuter their dog, but have them well trained instead.

But in my experience, usually the owners that do not bother neutering are the same owners that can not be bothered to train their dog.

#54

[QUOTE=Simkie;5849996]
<raises hand>

Okay, I’ll admit it–I would sooner neuter a male than spay a female. Spaying is pretty major abdominal surgery. Neutering is a simple snip snip and no muscle layer has to be cut. I also just don’t find bitches coming into heat troublesome. I prefer females, and haven’t had a male animal in … years. Perhaps if I had more males, I would be more guarded about neutering them.

Granted, I’m not saying I don’t want to spay my girls because of some issue I have with MY overies! :lol:[/QUOTE]

That I understand. It IS a pretty major operation. I wish it was as easy as a snip snip (otherwise the mare would be snipped!).

I have always had female dogs, who have always been “fixed”.

Those of you that have female that are not fixed, how do you deal with the blood? My dog sleeps in my bed, I just couldn’t imagine leaving an in heat female in my house :dead:

#55

I’m back. I was at the barn learning forward on my horsie. Lots of posting.

That intact animals can be in control, well trained, and healthy is not an exception. As I said; castration is cultural. Somehow entire countries who think differently about the process have been able to responsibly raise intact animals…or not.

Alot of people have been misled about the virtues of castration and spay and the tribulations of having an intact animal. Decide to castrate? Then have all the information. And realize that people can easily decide not to castrate and also be correct. That’s all I’m saying.

My next male is likely not going to be castrated. Why not? Because I do not see the benefit of it. I can achieve sterilization through vasectomy.

Paula

#56

They wear panties, like these. The last intact bitch I had came into heat every 9 months or so and was in for about 3 weeks. She had to wear something for about a week and a half. It was just such a non event.

The girl I have now IS spayed–she is a pet quality dog, and was never shown, and I spayed her after her first heat cycle–and she had a horrible reaction to anesthesia and was SO sick afterward. It was pretty horrible. :frowning:

#57

Ayup, and I’ve seen the same thing here, and it always seems to be some bully breed, with a prong collar and a chain leash.

What I can tell you, though, is the dog park is just NOT a good way to find people who are responsible about managing their intact dogs. I would never, ever take ANY dog of mine, intact or not, to a dog park. WAAAAAAAY too much risk of injury or disease. Hell, I don’t even take my dogs to PetSmart.

If you want to see some responsible management of intact dogs, hit up a conformation show. Sure, there are idiots there, too, but there are also a lot of people who have an excellent handle on their intact dogs. (I’m sure there are other venues where you can see a lot of intact dogs managed well–I don’t want to portray conformation shows as the only option–but it’s what I’m familiar with.)

#58

These would be the countries where dog is considered a delicacy? In that case, I can see the philosophy of “the more the merrier”. Castration is the responsible thing to do in THIS country because it is irresponsible to allow your dog to ‘have sex’. It results in puppies.

It is not a hard concept to learn - much like the concept of gelding an intact horse which should not be bred. - Paulaedwina, what is your point? Do you WANT male dogs kept as pets to be castrated or uncastrated? Its safer for the females they encounter, whether they are spayed or not, and its a way of controlling a hugely unmanageable population of unwanted animals.

Who cares about philosophies or people who anthropomorphosize their animals? Neutering helps our society function better - we are a society which cares deeply for our animals and their well being, and those who don’t shouldn’t have animals because the care of them will be borne by others, and its irresponsible to those around you and to the animals to neglect their well being.

#59

Vasectomy renders a dog sterile without having to castrate him. I would prefer vasectomizing my dogs than castrating them. Does this make me a less caring or less responsible pet owner?

These would be the countries where dog is considered a delicacy? In that case, I can see the philosophy of “the more the merrier”. Castration is the responsible thing to do in THIS country because it is irresponsible to allow your dog to ‘have sex’. It results in puppies.

Wow.

Paula

#60

Ahhh, I think we’re talking, like…Sweden. Not China.

There are plenty of European countries where dogs are not altered as default and do not have over population issues. It’s all about how the owners VIEW and TREAT the dogs.

If we could get ALL (or even the majority) owners in this country actually training their dogs and controlling their dogs and expecting their dog to PROVE itself before it was allowed to breed, we would have a far, far different climate.

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