[QUOTE=Simkie;5850249]
If we could get ALL (or even the majority) owners in this country actually training their dogs and controlling their dogs and expecting their dog to PROVE itself before it was allowed to breed, we would have a far, far different climate.[/QUOTE]
The problem is, that won’t happen here. So, the best solution is to advocate neutering, but not make it a law (thus interfering with responsible breeders and owners)
It’s a rule in our house, as soon as the dog or cat is old enough, male or female, it gets neutered or spayed. I’m a very good pet owner and believe in training my animals; however, I do know that accidents can happen and I’m not willing to take that chance. Besides, there isn’t enough money in the world to get me to put up with a female cat or dog in heat. Ugghhh.
As far as dogs, we have two dogs that constantly come and mark everything around our house or barn (both urine and fecal) and both are intact males that live nearby. Maybe all intact males don’t roam but these two do and that’s enough to cure me of ever leaving one intact. I can’t stand the constant crap on everything ( I didn’t even know dogs did that!) and they are a good example of owners who refuse to keep their animals under control. Both owners are aware their dogs keep coming to our place and mark things, chase the cows, and have even been caught killing the chickens and yet…
I absolutely agree!!
But I do have a problem with people (there are a few on this thread!) who seem to believe you cannot be responsible owner and have an intact animal. I know there are A LOT of irresponsible owners of intact animals. There are also A LOT of irresponsible owners of altered animals, and there are A LOT of responsible owners who choose, for whatever reason, to not alter their dogs.
Painting any group with a broad brush can be dangerous, regardless of the brush or the group 
Even if you are a responsible owner as you put it, accidents happen, a gate gets left open, a door etc. And along comes a litter of puppies that wouldn’t be there had you gotten your dog fixed.
You can wax philosophical all you like about being a good owner but in the end what will you do if your intact dog knocks up the neighbors dog?
Until there are no more dogs and cats being euthanized across the globe because of overpopulation you owe it to every shelter puppy thats gassed out of this existance to go happily down to your local vet and get those damn things lopped off. MMkay?
Wendy - Looking at that website, the board of directors seems to be made up of factory farmers, animal medical researchers (vivisectionists) and dog and horse breeders, plus the VP for Ringling Bros and Barnum and Bailey Circus. They are in the business of promoting the use of animals without any oversight. Hardly a neutral reference.
Taking the behaviour issue off the plate, it’s better to spay and neuter than euthanize millions of unwanted companion animals every year.
StG
I am a stallion owner.
I love the horse; he is a gentleman with training and manners.
However, having one stallion complicates turnout logistics.
Having multiple stallions complicates them even further.
So, unless you own your own place, you may well have problems finding a facility to board your intact because you think all males should be intact horse.
I have had intact animals–males and females–for 15 years. I have never had an animal get loose and knock up another dog or get knocked up.
There are others on this thread who have had intact animals for 30 years with no ooops pregnancies.
I also have purebred dogs who have five plus generations of champions behind them, five plus generations of good hips behind them, five plus generations of good eyes behind them, five plus generations of good temperaments behind them…these are the dogs that SHOULD be bred.
If we are neutering and spaying EVERYTHING, how do you propose we continue the lines of dogs that PROVE themselves and DESERVE to be bred?
For the record, I’m not saying all animals should be spayed and neutered, but unless there’s a specific need to breed an animal, it shouldn’t be done. And if I was the Queen of the AKC, registrations would be limited to a maximum of 10 per year per human owner (not per dog), so people would be far, far more circumspect when considering breeding.
I once read an article in the AKC Dog Breeders Gazette that claimed that some breeders euthanize up to 90% of their litters, so they only seem to produce “champions”. In what world is this okay? Animals shouldn’t be more disposable than Kleenex.
StG
You realize that vasectomy makes the animal sterile without having to castrate him and lose all benefits of hormones right? So I ask again; what’s wrong with not castrating, but vasectomizing??
As for Wendy’s resource: she is not the only one who posted journal articles or scientific research that showed that castration has been oversold with questionable assertions. I posted a few resources earlier in the thread.
St Germain, I’m no breeder, but I always figured that in order to create a breed you kill alot of puppies. I mean if dogs, left to their own devices, look essentially like a small lab, I imagined that the road to all of these breeds is littered with alot of breed failures. So while what you report seems pretty horrible, when I think about it, it doesn’t surprise me.
Paula
[QUOTE=Appsolute;5850048]
Those of you that have female that are not fixed, how do you deal with the blood? My dog sleeps in my bed, I just couldn’t imagine leaving an in heat female in my house :dead:[/QUOTE]
Infant training pants. Every 6 months, with intact males from the neighborhood drawn to the yard. Dog must be taken outside on a leash NO EXCEPTIONS and don’t forget to take off the training pants!
I reiterate, pain in the butt.
wendy, you left off the x50 times likelihood of unneutered dog being lost/ shot/ run over after it manages to escape the yard and goes looking for a partner.
Uh huh. Or so they say. I could also tell you stories of many reasonably responsible pet owners whose animals did have or cause oops pregnancies. And those absolutely are true.
No one is talking about neutering EVERYTHING, but there are more dogs and cats than there are good owners.
Paulaedwina, the reason to neuter is to eliminate sex drive, among other things, which is not useful or desirable in a non-breeding animal.
This may have been mentioned already…but…intact males have a SIGNIFICANTLY higher rate of:
Prostatitis and Prostate Cancer
Can be seen with neutered males, but the vast majority are intact males. It is very common,especially in large breed intact males.
Many police dogs in Toronto are now getting neutered before 2 years old as to many young working dogs were lost to prostate cancer.
A good breeding practice for those who have intact animals, is to spay/neuter once their breeding career has ended. Decreases the chances of pyometra, mammary and prostate cancers. I have met some LOVELY breeding dogs who represent the breed well and have excellent breed qualities - these should be the intact animals throughout the breeding career. My friend just lost her breeding female to a complicated pyo - she was planning on getting her spayed but waitedjust a little bit too long.
And just wanted to add that according to the stats that wendy posted, a quarter of the intact female population will end up with a pyometra requiring an emergency spay. Otherwise she may very well die with a massive infection.
I’m confused. Are you saying that no one is capable of having an intact animal responsibly, or not? Do you believe the responsible breeders who screen their stock for genetic diseases and prove them somehow have accidental pregnancies left and right?
I don’t disagree that there are FAR more people who have intact dogs and cats than there are people who have them responsibly. But there ARE people who have intact animals who DO keep them responsibly and DO NOT have accidental pregnancies. This isn’t rocket science–keep the intact dogs away from the intact bitches when they’re in heat, and you won’t have accidental pregnancies.
My only point through this whole thread is that it’s not impossible (or even DIFFICULT) to have an intact animal and be responsible about it. Just because someone chooses to not alter their animal does not automatically mean that that person is an irresponsible asshole who allows their pet to run loose in the neighborhood breeding everything that moves :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Simkie;5850492]
I’m confused. Are you saying that no one is capable of having an intact animal responsibly, or not? Do you believe the responsible breeders who screen their stock for genetic diseases and prove them somehow have accidental pregnancies left and right?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I can see how you got that from what I wrote. :rolleyes:
Well, we’ll have to disagree there; my family had intact females for 19 years (the Schnauzer for 9 years, and then the Cairn Terrier was intact for 10 years), no accidental pregnancies but again, it was a PITA. The bleeding, the intact males hanging around, the false pregnancies… oh and the mastitis was fun too.
Keeping the intact bitch and male apart isn’t always easy, unless the dog is always on a leash, is very obedient and working, or you have fencing that is dogproof – again, buried 3 feet deep and probably over 6’ high for medium to large dogs. My FIL had covered dog pens but the dogs often managed to dig out when they were in heat.
I don’t have a problem with you keeping your animals intact. I never said every dog everywhere needs to be spayed/ neutered. Just pointing out that with dogs when there’s a will there’s a way, and some of the difficulties involved in keeping an intact dog. You seem to be taking this personally.
Um, first you insinuate that the people on this thread who have stated they have had intact animals for 30 years without accidental pregnancies are lying, and then you state you’re not advocating spaying and neutering everything? I’m really not sure why you’re surprised I’m confused?
I’m really not taking this personally, but I’m a little confused about what you and others are aiming for here. Should every dog be neutered or spayed, or do you believe that there are people who can have intact animals responsibly?
In MY ideal world, those who are dedicated to improving the breed, training their animals, and proving them somehow would be the only ones breeding or with intact critters, and those who cannot be bothered with training or proving or testing for disease would spay and neuter. Can we at least agree that that would be a nice utopia?
Remember where this thread started. OK, not where it started I guess (it started with the men/balls thing!). It started with the claim that people are fed a lot of propaganda when they are urged to neuter their pets. To me that means that if the real truth were told, that it is JUST the most certain, cost-effective way of eliminating unwanted behavior, it wouldn’t be the best thing to do in many/most/a lot of circumstances. That is the point I think a lot of people are responding to.
I disagree on two levels with that assumption. (1) I don’t think the behavioral and health effects of neutering are propaganda and (2) even if preventing pregnancy were the ONLY reason, it would still be the RIGHT DECISION for probably 99% of dog and cat owners.
This isn’t about breeders. It isn’t about responsible owners of intact animals, though for me the line gets a bit fuzzy there because I think it’s a difficult undertaking with minimal benefit if the animal is not being bred. It isn’t about the difference between vasectomy and castration. It is about whether people are being sold a bill of goods about the reasons for neutering. And IMHO they are not. I’d LIKE to come up with propaganda that would make more people neuter their pets, quite frankly.
Simkie - Most people who have had intact animals for 30 years have had at least one accidental pregnancy, probably more. That doesn’t equal my saying that everything should be spayed and neutered, or that an accidental pregnancy automatically makes someone an irresponsible owner. But yeah, I can see why you see that if you just want to argue.
[QUOTE=Simkie;5850550]
Should every dog be neutered or spayed, or do you believe that there are people who can have intact animals responsibly?[/QUOTE]
Obviously I believe the latter since my family had intact females FOR 19 YEARS and we were and are responsible pet owners. Not even any accidental pregnancies. But, as I’ve already said at least 2 times, dealing with the heats was a pain. At least I thought so.
Also,
“Just because someone chooses to not alter their animal does not automatically mean that that person is an irresponsible asshole who allows their pet to run loose in the neighborhood breeding everything that moves.”
Well, you know what? That unfortunately describes 90+% of people with intact dogs and cats.
JoZ - I completely agree with you.
Unfortunately, the subset of those interested in “improving the breed” in the real world is a vanishingly small fraction of those who own intact animals.
Ask any shelter worker who has had to make the decision on which of the 14 litters of kittens to euthanize and which to try to get adopted.
[QUOTE=JoZ;5850573]
Remember where this thread started. OK, not where it started I guess (it started with the men/balls thing!).[/QUOTE]
Definitely started with me b*tching about men and balls!
FWIW, I have 3 male dogs. One is neutered, one is intact, and the other is a puppy that will be neutered. The most aggressive dog of the 3 (by a mile) is the neutered male. Of course, he was an adult dog that I rescued from a bad situation about 5 years ago. My intact dog is the smartest, best behaved, and most docile dog around.
I have no problem with responsible breeders keeping their dogs intact, but if you are not going to breed the dog, don’t hang onto his balls just because it somehow makes you feel immasculated by having them removed! They are not your balls that are coming off!
But I get the vasectomy thing. I’d probably do that to my intact Aussie if we decided to stop breeding him… Mostly because he’s already obese enough and I’d be afraid that if he were neutered he would get even fatter!
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