Men - it's not you we're neutering! RANT

[Mara]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;5850732]
Unfortunately, the subset of those interested in “improving the breed” in the real world is a vanishingly small fraction of those who own intact animals.

Ask any shelter worker who has had to make the decision on which of the 14 litters of kittens to euthanize and which to try to get adopted.[/QUOTE]

It’s also disheartening to talk to the average BYB and find out what they consider to be “improving the breed”.

We have some neighbors who I really, really like. They are mostly wonderful dog owners - dogs are trained to the nth (positive reinforcement) and get lots of attention and exercise.

What keeps them from being TOTALLY wonderful dog owners is that they’ve kept their American Bulldog bitch intact and plan to breed her. She is a sweet, sweet dog, and very cute, but there’s nothing remarkable that needs to be perpetuated. Not only are they going to breed her, but they think the IDEAL stud dog for her is their friend’s PBT. Sigh. (I like every Pittie I’ve ever met; I just think this cross is a Really Bad Idea).

If the pittie is anything like the ABD, I’m sure he’s a wonderful dog. And the family is sure they are going to get lots of $$$ for the puppies. Well, maybe, but geez, consider the demographics who are just DRAWN to the kind of pups a Pit Bull/American Bulldog cross will produce. (Before I get accused of unfair generalizations, I KNOW it’s not always the case, okay?) Yep, it’s the “if I can’t kick your a$$ I’m going to have a dog who CAN!” kind of people. Who you know are not going to neuter the males.

I like these people and so don’t want to harangue them, which wouldn’t do anything anyway except alienate them. I have managed to convince them to wait until she is two and more mature; I’m hoping this will accomplish at least one of two things. One, that they will tire of the bleeding and just give up and spay her, and/or two, that I can manage to casually reference enough “horror stories” about stuff like C-sections for giant-headed puppies.

And if all fails, at least they’re only going to breed her ONCE, and then have her spayed.

[Ghazzu]

Just a little PSA from a veterinary professional here–neutering an animal does not cause obesity.
PRoviding an animal with a caloric intake which exceeds its needs does.

[OveroHunter]

It makes sense that it wouldn’t cause them to gain weight, but I have always heard that it does and I know when we spayed our female and didn’t change her diet, she put on a ton of weight. Coincidence or difference between males and females? Definitely not an expert here.

[Ghazzu]

@OveroHunter;5851128

It makes sense that it wouldn’t cause them to gain weight, but I have always heard that it does and I know when we spayed our female and didn’t change her diet, she put on a ton of weight. Coincidence or difference between males and females? Definitely not an expert here.

The gonadectomy lowers their metabolic rate.
So you just need to either increase the exercise, or decrease the calories you feed.
You needed to change the diet, in your example above.

[OveroHunter]

We did. It was actually kind of weird because she gained a lot of weight (for her size) we changed her diet (not drastically by any means) and she lost it right away and was back to normal. That was a year ago and she’s still the same general weight she always was before she was spayed… I wish my diets worked that well!

[StGermain]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5850396]
St Germain, I’m no breeder, but I always figured that in order to create a breed you kill alot of puppies. I mean if dogs, left to their own devices, look essentially like a small lab, I imagined that the road to all of these breeds is littered with alot of breed failures. So while what you report seems pretty horrible, when I think about it, it doesn’t surprise me.

Paula[/QUOTE]

You kill a lot of puppies to create a breed? If your dog is throwing 90% puppies that are incompatible with life, you don’t breed the dog. And if you’re killing 90% of healthy puppies because they have a white spot or poor ear set at birth, then you’re murdering dogs that could be fine working or companion animals, provided they’re spayed or neutered.

My childhood dog was an Afghan we got at 1/2 the going rate for the litter, because he had a small white spot on his chest, and the breed standard specified no white (of course, within 10 years Afghans with huge white blazes were winning big in the ring!). He was a marvelous companion for 14 years. My life would’ve been much poorer without that “disposible” dog.

StG

[paulaedwina]

Please see what I wrote. I am speculating that creating a breed occurs this way. I am not a breeder. But when you’re creating a breed there’s a lot of line breeding, and selection of the best representatives right? What happens to the rest of the puppies?

I think when you have an established breed you probably don’t destroy as many puppies, but it does happen. In my favorite breed, until recentlly ridgeless pups were euthanized because nobody wanted them to breed back into the line.

Paula

[Ghazzu]

@paulaedwina;5851512

Please see what I wrote. I am speculating that creating a breed occurs this way. I am not a breeder. But when you’re creating a breed there’s a lot of line breeding, and selection of the best representatives right? What happens to the rest of the puppies?

I think when you have an established breed you probably don’t destroy as many puppies, but it does happen. In my favorite breed, until recentlly ridgeless pups were euthanized because nobody wanted them to breed back into the line.

Paula

But I thought it was entirely possible to keep intact animals without allowing them to breed… Is the choice then, either breed or destroy, but not neuter?

[paulaedwina]

How often should I emphasize that I am not a breeder? As I said, I was speculating on what a poster mentioned about an AKC article s/he had read. It made me realize that the reality of my favorite breed of Rhodesian Ridgebacks probably came to be over alot of dead pups.

I’m not sure what this has to do with my preference to vasectomize rather than castrate, since both procedures render the bearer sterile?

Paula

[RedMare01]

Okay, I get that vasectomies make the dog sterile, but what exactly is the advantage of vasectomy over neutering? He’s not going to breed in either case. Unless I’m missing something, why on earth would a vasectomy be preferred?

[paulaedwina]

1. There are disease risks associated with castration, such as bone cancer and prostate cancer.

http://www.dogcancerblog.com/bladder-and-prostate-cancer-neutering-male-dogs-increases-risk-2/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17516571

2. Castrated dogs seem to have more issues with dog aggression.

3. Intact dogs look different from castrated dogs -especially dogs that are castrated early. They don’t get the muscling, for example, and their long bones grow longer and thinner.

4. Vasectomy seems much less invasive than castration.

Paula

[Simkie]

@RedMare01;5852286

Okay, I get that vasectomies make the dog sterile, but what exactly is the advantage of vasectomy over neutering? He’s not going to breed in either case. Unless I’m missing something, why on earth would a vasectomy be preferred?

Because there may be some benefits to a male dog keeping his nuggets: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf

[Arizona_DQ]

[QUOTE=StGermain;5850384]
I once read an article in the AKC Dog Breeders Gazette that claimed that some breeders euthanize up to 90% of their litters, so they only seem to produce “champions”. In what world is this okay? Animals shouldn’t be more disposable than Kleenex.

StG[/QUOTE]

I would really like to see that article. I have been getting AKC Gazette for over 40 years! NEVER read that! Years ago (40 - 50) breeders did euthanize puppies that did not fit the breed standard, I heard of those. But not today, we will pet out a puppy who is not up to par (such as a ridgeless ridgeback - sell it on limited registration, but not kill it!

I will euthanize a puppy with a serious health issue, but not just because it is not going to be a champion! Why do you think we grow out a few of our puppies?? Because we cannot alwasy tell who will grow to be a CH! Geesh!!!:no::no:

Any breeder who is euthanizing 90% of her litters, is sure not breeding correctly to begin with. Shear BS.

[Foxtrot_s]

While I firmly believe in spaying or neutering, I would not like to live in a society where I was told what to do with my animals. As a responsible pet owner I feel I will do what is best for me and my animals. I just don’t like over-regulation.
But there is no denying that there are unaltered animals wandering around procreating and an education program works for me. In the Bahamas the potcakes are everywhere, strays that keep reproducing and getting no care. I would like to see all animals neutered/spayed unless there is a good reason to keep them whole.
When I did have an open female, it was just amazing how many suitors she had from around the neighbourhood.

[FalseImpression]

I had a chuckle and was quite impressed yesterday by my car’s mechanic. Here is a young single male in his 20s, proud owner of a cane corso, and he just got his dog neutered! He stated the dog was doing great, was easy for his parents and grandparents to handle when needed… and he laughed “Hey, they were not taking MINE!! so, what’s the big deal?” lol He said he was working on one of his friends with a husky who “really needs that brain surgery!”

Now, my DD’s coworker with a basset beagle cross who thinks her dog is so cute someone will want to breed to him!!! gah…

[MsM]

Even while linebreeding to establish a breed or strain, no decent breeder would have masses of puppies that needed to be killed! Off-type puppies, sure, but those are placeable and usually saleable as pets. It is possible to breed a litter where some puppies inherit an unsuspected and serious genetic flaw, but that would not be common.

I think it is kinder to male horses to geld than to let them live a life with their hormones driving them to sex that I will not allow. Similarly, I think male dogs are better off castrated than left entire if no breeding is contemplated. A vasectomy may prevent litters and I applaud that, but I am not convinced it provides a better life for the dog.

[paulaedwina]

The few intact dogs I’ve met or fostered didn’t seem suffering for having their testicles. As far as disease risk goes I think it is a better life.

JMO of course.
Paula

[vacation1]

Interesting debate. Personally, although I’m slightly aware of the Rottie issue, if I had to choose one gender to spare neutering, it would be the females as the surgery is more involved. Neutering also can have an aggression-raising effect on bitches, another downside. However - honestly, most people can’t handle their dogs. And since it’s somehow un-American to restrict the ownership of dogs in any way, shape or form, especially by banning the breeds which have an open, admitted, even boasted-about propensity toward violence, I think the anti-speuter position is just a nice theory that would be a disaster in reality.

[paulaedwina]

Except of course that it wasn’t an anti-speuter debate, it was an anti-castration debate.

And there are no breeds of dogs that should be banned because of their predisposition to violence. All dogs have a predisposition to violence. They are predators.

Paula

[vacation1]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5854353]
And there are no breeds of dogs that should be banned because of their predisposition to violence. All dogs have a predisposition to violence. They are predators.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes: Sure. Predators who have lived so successfully with humans for so long that their very name is a byword for fidelity. You can be overly simplistic and chant “All dogs bite” until the end of time, and it still doesn’t hold water. Most dogs don’t bite. It’s a ridiculous evasion to pretend that biting is just a result of being a dog.