Men - it's not you we're neutering! RANT

[Kryswyn]

Keeping an intact male around intact females is very hard on them. Especially when you know you’re not planning a litter of puppies. They whine through their back teeth in the most annoying way, they go off their feed and lose weight, they injure themselves trying to get to the girl.

If you’re planning to breed a litter, it’s really not any better because they want to breed from the day the bitch comes in till the day she goes out, and you can’t let them do that. The only benefit is that if the bitch catches, she usually goes out sooner.

[Trakehner]

[QUOTE=Simkie;5849996]
<raises hand>

Okay, I’ll admit it–I would sooner neuter a male than spay a female. Spaying is pretty major abdominal surgery. Neutering is a simple snip snip and no muscle layer has to be cut. I also just don’t find bitches coming into heat troublesome. I prefer females, and haven’t had a male animal in … years. Perhaps if I had more males, I would be more guarded about neutering them.

Granted, I’m not saying I don’t want to spay my girls because of some issue I have with MY overies! :lol:[/QUOTE]

Actually, neutering male cats is a simple snip-snip. Neutering a dog is a lot more involved than a cat…it’s not a simple snipping. Spaying is fairly simple also, not all that involved unless they’re tiny breeds (and yes, I have spayed several hundred female dogs and neutered an equal number of male dogs when I was in the Army) Most female dogs are spayed to keep the mess down when they’re in heat. Of course, no spayed female can ever get pregnant no matter how many intact male dogs are around.

Male cats can spray, dogs don’t.

If spaying mares was easier there’d be a lot less Regumate sold and not a lot of intact mares behaving mareish.

I once knew a female vet who was really screwed up and had severe hatred of males. She loved to neuter dogs, drop their testicles on the floor and step on them. A very twisted creepy woman.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=Kryswyn;5857846]
Keeping an intact male around intact females is very hard on them. Especially when you know you’re not planning a litter of puppies. They whine through their back teeth in the most annoying way, they go off their feed and lose weight, they injure themselves trying to get to the girl.[/QUOTE]

Um. No. Just no. Keeping an intact male around intact females does not have to be “very hard on them”. As with most environmental stim, it’s just one more thing to train through. My males don’t whine, drool, go off their feed or lose their focus during training. I have not had one injure himself or cause/take part in an argument with another male either. When the males are crated so the girls can be out, they sleep. When the girls are crated and the boys are out, the boys sleep by the girls crates.

Of course, I don’t have “26 Jack Russells divided into 3 packs” (post #104) either. I just had 3 intact males and 2 intact females.

[threedogpack]

should add, that I still think most people should alter their dogs. Most people don’t train enough, often enough, well enough or have enough interest to manage their dogs appropriately.

[paulaedwina]

I don’t have a problem with training. And funny thing; of all the dog people I know, most don’t have a problem with training so I think this, “most people…” generalization is really influenced by your own POV since neither of us is talking real numbers. I belonged to a local kennel club when I lived in my last home and there was an opportunity to see intact animals in the same place and they did not whine, drool, obsess, seem miserable, etc when they were together in shows or classes.

I am used to having a pack. This is the only time I’ve had one dog for any extended period (my pack is dying off of old age and cancer) so I have no problem keeping more than one dog.

I’ve had an intact rhodesian ridgeback in my house as a foster with other castrated dogs and we had absolutely no problem. In fact I almost failed foster with Chester. Indeed I’ve had the most issues with my last ridgie Yoshi - a castrated male.

I have no problem with altering, I have a problem with castration.

Paula

[lovey1121]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;5857923]
Um. No. Just no. Keeping an intact male around intact females does not have to be “very hard on them”. As with most environmental stim, it’s just one more thing to train through. My males don’t whine, drool, go off their feed or lose their focus during training. I have not had one injure himself or cause/take part in an argument with another male either. When the males are crated so the girls can be out, they sleep. When the girls are crated and the boys are out, the boys sleep by the girls crates.
Of course, I don’t have “26 Jack Russells divided into 3 packs” (post #104) either. I just had 3 intact males and 2 intact females.[/QUOTE]

Wow. You are the world’s most enlightened and skilled dog trainer ever. Your dogs must be perfect. Congratulations.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;5857923]
Um. No. Just no. Keeping an intact male around intact females does not have to be “very hard on them”. As with most environmental stim, it’s just one more thing to train through. My males don’t whine, drool, go off their feed or lose their focus during training. I have not had one injure himself or cause/take part in an argument with another male either. When the males are crated so the girls can be out, they sleep. When the girls are crated and the boys are out, the boys sleep by the girls crates. [/QUOTE]

Well, you also might have gotten lucky. I used to think I was the most fabulous dog trainer until I got my second dog. Boy was that a kick in the a$$ to find out that it was just my fabulous dog… :lol:

One of my breeder friends used to keep intact dogs and bitches. She had no real trouble for years. But once the two males got into a fight when a bitch was in heat…prior to that time they were inseparable. After the incident, however, they NEVER reconciled, and could never be kept together. I think ultimately she rehomed one of them with a friend because it was impossible to keep them all from then on.

Obviously there are tons of things that could influence the situation – I don’t recall the exact story so perhaps this was a new bitch and therefore, a new situation? Introducing any new dog or bitch into a “pack” can cause serious ripples in the pack order…

Certainly you have a lot of experience and the training you provide plays a huge role. But it might be too much to assume that simply “training” the dogs not to be affected by their own sex drive is possible in all cases.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5857980]
I belonged to a local kennel club when I lived in my last home and there was an opportunity to see intact animals in the same place and they did not whine, drool, obsess, seem miserable, etc when they were together in shows or classes. [/QUOTE]

But this isn’t how they have to live. (Usually).

AND Many exhibitors keep their bitches in season in their vans/RVs or at home rather than crate them with any dogs they are showing. They also (often) use chemicals (concentrated chlorophyll) to mask the scent of their bitches in season for the benefit of their dogs. Some exhibitors use things like Vicks Vapor rub on their dogs to keep them from smelling bitches in season.

So…it DOES affect many dogs and their performance. Not all of them, of course, and the degree to which it affects each dog is individual. Some dogs show better when they ‘strut’ anyway.

[paulaedwina]

You selected this part of my post and overlooked my own experience of having an intact male in my house with my other castrated males.

I don’t know any of the owners who did that with their dogs - the vicks, the chlorophyll, etc. Maybe I was lucky in my exposure. All dogs have their requirements anyway right? I’ve had a pack of sighthounds. This would be too much for someone else because sighthounds have ridiculously high prey drives. For instance this makes recall a bit of a challenge for many -although mine have had good recall. Sighthounds are too much for some because they have been bred to be quite independent and require a tailored approach to training (seeing that they really don’t care much about the whole pleasing-you thing).

All we know is that different dogs have different personalities. Nobody has tested me like my castrated male, Yoshi (the last of the ridgies). Jem Finch - the azawakh/borzoi was crazy dog aggressive and not in tact BTW.

So you cannot predict how every castrated dog will act or how every intact dog will act; whether they’ll be beasts or angels. But the castration propaganda will attempt to convince you that you can.

Paula

[S1969]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5858080]
You selected this part of my post and overlooked my own experience of having an intact male in my house with my other castrated males.

I don’t know any of the owners who did that with their dogs - the vicks, the chlorophyll, etc. Maybe I was lucky in my exposure. All dogs have their requirements anyway right? I’ve had a pack of sighthounds. This would be too much for someone else because sighthounds have ridiculously high prey drives. For instance this makes recall a bit of a challenge for many -although mine have had good recall. Sighthounds are too much for some because they have been bred to be quite independent and require a tailored approach to training (seeing that they really don’t care much about the whole pleasing-you thing).

All we know is that different dogs have different personalities. Nobody has tested me like my castrated male, Yoshi (the last of the ridgies). Jem Finch - the azawakh/borzoi was crazy dog aggressive and not in tact BTW.

So you cannot predict how every castrated dog will act or how every intact dog will act; whether they’ll be beasts or angels. But the castration propaganda will attempt to convince you that you can.

Paula[/QUOTE]

I was only pointing out that what looks to be intact males and females all getting along together is often not exactly that – handlers often use a variety of methods to keep them focused and/or not acting on their instincts.

I’ve also owned an easy going intact male (now deceased), and a less reliable neutered male (who was this way even before neutering). I am glad I don’t have to deal with his less reliable temperment AND hormones on top of it.

[paulaedwina]

Thanks for the clarification. Your experience with the easy going intact male and the less reliable castrated male kind of make my point; that the behavior is not based on the hormones even though the party line implies it (that castrated males are more laid back than intact males, for example). Personality is personality.

Paula

[wendy]

should add, that I still think most people should alter their dogs. Most people don’t train enough, often enough, well enough or have enough interest to manage their dogs appropriately.

agree many people don’t train enough or manage their dogs appropriately, but what does that have to do with surgical neutering?
Neutering doesn’t magically train dogs or make them any easier to manage. Intact dogs aren’t any harder to train or manage than neutered dogs. Neutered or intact they shouldn’t be roaming free, should be trained, and should be regularly exercised.

[paulaedwina]

It’s part of the propaganda that we’ve all accepted - that somehow, miraculously, cutting off a dog’s testicles makes him trainable, tractable, or gives him a good personality. And that the opposite is true as well; that any dog with testicles is untrainable, intractable, and has a horrid personality. As anyone who has had both would tell you; testicles have nothing to do with it. There are much better predictors of personality than testicles.

I can only laugh when I think back to when one of my very dog-savvy friends first met Yoshi as an 8 wk old puppy (a 22lb 8-wk old puppy!). He played with him, and at some point rolled him on his back. I don’t know what happened in the process, but Bruce laughed and laughed that I-can-see-what’s-coming laugh and predicted that Yoshi would be a handful. He did indeed turn out to be one of the toughest dogs I’ve raised -and he was castrated at 4 months while getting dermoid sinus surgery.

Paula

[tradewind]

Intact males vary quite a bit in their reactions to living with intact females. I have some that were fine, others that were completely off the hook. The ones that were off the hook, are not going to be trained out of it. In those cases, I have placed them with friends on a breeding contract. This way the dogs did not suffer for me having multiple intact bitches, my friends got the type of dog that was exceedingly well trained, bred etc. They could not have possibly afforded the dog under normal circumstances. I had my breeding program stay intact, and the dog was much happier. It was a win win for all of us, dog included.

[grayarabpony]

paulaedwina, propaganda is not the same as generalization. In general, a dog is going to be better off without a sex drive. Does it mean every single dogs needs to be neutered? No, because they’re all individuals. However, in general, a dog’s sex drive is just a useless nuisance for everybody.

If you’re worried about health effects than why not consider neutering after a year? Or find a breed that’s not so prone to cancer?

[paulaedwina]

I have no problem with neutering, I have an issue with castration. I do not want to castrate, but I see the purpose of sterilization.

Paula

[grayarabpony]

Neutering and castration are the same thing.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=tradewind;5858143]
Intact males vary quite a bit in their reactions to living with intact females. I have some that were fine, others that were completely off the hook. The ones that were off the hook, are not going to be trained out of it[/QUOTE]

Perhaps. It could have been a family trait to be so easy to live with as they were 3 gens of the same family. Father/son/g’son.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=wendy;5858132]
agree many people don’t train enough or manage their dogs appropriately, but what does that have to do with surgical neutering?
Neutering doesn’t magically train dogs or make them any easier to manage. Intact dogs aren’t any harder to train or manage than neutered dogs. Neutered or intact they shouldn’t be roaming free, should be trained, and should be regularly exercised.[/QUOTE]

if you aren’t going to train the dog, it’s going to be a problem and many of the scenarios previously presented have a higher chance of happening.

You are correct that neutering does not train dogs or make them more trainable. But those who put the effort into training are more likely to also be aware of outside influences (girls in heat) and thus manage their dogs better.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5858420]
Neutering and castration are the same thing.[/QUOTE]

I thought that same thing.