[QUOTE=lovey1121;5858005]
Wow. You are the world’s most enlightened and skilled dog trainer ever. Your dogs must be perfect. Congratulations.[/QUOTE]
Sarcasm becomes you.
Neutering and castration are not the same thing. Neutering is rendering sterile and castration is doing so by removing the testicles. I’ve been saying all along that I see the benefit of rendering my dog sterile, but I do not see the benefit of removing his testicles to do so if I can do it with vasectomy (severing and sealing of the of the vasa deferentia).
Paula
No, that’s your definition. One of the definitions of neuter is castration. Look it up. 
Obviously you just like to argue. Neuter, don’t neuter, I don’t care. Just don’t let your dog get loose (and I’m sure that will never ever happen…).
We can call it cake and cookies if you’d like and define cake as sterilization by castration, and cookies as sterilization by means not including removal of the testicles.
I would prefer cookies - sterilization by other means not including removal of the testicles.
“VNN Reporter, Dr. Patty Khuly mentioned in her blog today that she was looking to see how many veterinarians across the US actually would perform a vasectomy on a male dog or a tubal ligation on a female dog. Just to be clear, these are not normal procedures for sterilizing our pets. Male dogs generally have their testicles completely removed (castration) and female dogs have the uterus and ovaries removed (ovariohysterectomy)” http://forums.petdocsoncall.com/entry.php?69-Vasectomies-for-Dogs
Here’s the source -Dr Patty Khuly’s blog. http://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2010/april/ligations_vasectomies
She says,
"But if you ask veterinarians across the country, the concept of a tubal ligation or vasectomy reeks of the unethical. That’s what I’ve been told by some colleagues, anyway. “Why do something only halfway?” Moreover, they assume the desire for these procedures comes down to mere human conceit (i.e., “I want my dog to keep his balls and I think it’s natural for him to continue to have sex.”).
To be sure, there are some of these sentiments represented among the e-mailers asking about vasectomies. But increasingly, my callers and e-mailers aren’t the kooks my fellow colleagues might assume they’d be. In fact, most of them are perfectly normal, highly educated pet people who have taken the time to research the issue and wondered why the heck they were getting so much opposition from their vet. They’re just trying to do the responsible thing, right?"
So why is it so hard to find someone to do it? She speculates;
OK, so that was my long-winded explanation, to which I’ll add this obvious point:
[I]Veterinarians don’t do vasectomies and tubal ligations because we weren’t taught to do them in school. Veterinarians at the forefront of change in veterinary medicine tend to be those in vet school settings. They influence all of us through the papers they write, and the students they teach. But they have no incentive to teach these procedures or ponder their significance. [B]Even shelter medicine programs haven’t yet eyed this possibility. Adding another method to the mix is just too complicated…
…especially when that method is an unverifiable one. I mean, how would you know whether a dog has been vasectomized or had her “tubes tied”? It’s argued that these procedures might leave a telltale scar, but that’s no proof. The proof for males is in the absence of testicles, and for females, the absence of a heat cycle. [/B]Yet I’d rebut that there’s scant verifiability there, either. If it’s legal proof we’re concerned with, a veterinarian’s say-so should be enough, right?[/I]
I guess if you mean by “like to argue” is that I have a different opinion than yours, then I guess I like to argue.
I’m not surprised at the accusations or the strong feelings in this discussion. This is one of those times when someone challenges what you’ve always held as true. As we’ve all experienced this the reaction follows along the line of denial, hostility, group-think pathology, and anger. The messenger often gets it in the neck. It’s all good. We’ve all been here before.
Paula
Yes, obviously you like to argue if you say that the common usage of verb (neuter) or adjective (neutered) is incorrect. 
To neuter means to castrate or spay. Not the same as sterilization.
OMG. So your entire contribution to the virtues and drawbacks of castration as a method of sterilization is your advocacy of the proper use of these terms?
Then pray tell, what would you call the procedure of rendering a dog sterile without removing the testicles? How would you distinguish between that procedure and the typical procedure of castration.
If you so enlighten me I can proceed in the discussion without further confusion.
Paula
The trouble with the latest argument you present pe, is that tubal ligation would be easier than an OVH.
There’s also the fact that vasectomy FAILS. Vasectomy would not be, “This pet is now definitely rendered sterile.” It would be, “Hopefully this dog is now sterile, but it’s not 100% sure, and there still is a chance, albeit small, for ‘accidental’ pups in the future.”
Those two statements are nowhere close to the same thing, as I see it.
For instance, I do NOT want kids myself. Ever. Period. Amen. If I ever do find a man worth having and I’m not already absolutely, positively, Guinness Book of World Records past childbearing age, I will have myself rendered sterile. I will do this by TAHBSO, and I will pay a doctor myself if necessary (i.e. even if/when insurance refuses) for that. I would never trust tubal ligation. I would never trust vasectomy of the partner. Because they can FAIL, and I want absolute assurance of sterility. Neither of those procedures will give you absolute assurance of that. Nor will the pill, etc., etc. If you want to be SURE of sterility, total removal is the way to do so.
Same for my pets. When I alter a pet, I want them sterile, guaranteed sterile. Not just hopefully, statistically likely to be sterile but not for certain.
RE: The trouble with the latest argument you present pe, is that tubal ligation would be easier than an OVH.
Did you mean this the other way? OVH is a spay right? Did you mean to say that TL would be more difficult than OHV? I haven’t thought about it much with females since I have a preference to male dogs. I did take one rescue dog through spay and I hated it. She was so sore. It only struck me then that spay was abdominal surgery.
Dressagetraks, I just did a quick Google, and for humans the fail rate of vasectomy is 0.05%. http://www.vasectomy-information.com/articles/october2006.htm
I’m only speculating to think it would be the similar for dogs. I think training, a strong fence, and vasectomy would be reliable preventions for puppies and in my mind warrant keeping his testicles and thereby reducing his risk for other deadly diseases like bone cancer, and perturbing his growth rate.
Paula
For me personally, even if the fail rate is 0.0000001, that is still NOT definitely rendered sterile. With my luck, trust me, I’d hit the 1 in a million. Can’t win the lottery, but I can have some spectacular statistically unlikely things happen to me.
I don’t expect everybody else to follow that thinking, but that one issue would completely eliminate vasectomy as a sterility procedure from my consideration, and I will never consider it “definitely sterile.” Not even with people.
And if somebody calls that equivalent to castration as a sterilization procedure, I will point out that it isn’t the same level of certainty.
Of course, in the highly unlikely case that I ever met a castrated human male and got in a relationship, I would accept that as definite proof of sterility and not bother with the TAHBSO on my part. :winkgrin:
So if your male dog is so very well trained and can manage to restrain himself in the company of in-heat females during a lifetime of unmet sexual urges, then keep him intact. No need for a surgery most vets likely have never done.
Now does anybody here extend this to keeping all horses as stallions?
It really does come down to personal choice and personal comfort, doesn’t it? I mean it’s not like I’m going to stop someone from castrating his dog and I don’t expect anybody to grab up my (fictional) intact dog and cut off his testicles.
Sorry, MsM, we were posting simultaneously. Ideally I would want to sterilize my dog. There are vets who would do it, but whether one is near me is the question. I guess the question is; if I can’t find a vet to do it will I castrate or keep him entire and fertile? That’s a brilliant question and one that I wrestle with.
I can’t speak to stallions because I have no real experience with stallions. I’ve met a few, I’ve ridden at a dressage barn where two of the dressage horses were stallions. But I’ve never owned, handled or ridden one. Dog pack dynamics are different from horse herd dynamics. Dog packs often have more than one entire male, but hierarchy rules how they interact and they can interact peaceably. I don’t get the sense that horse herds work the same way. It strikes me that there are many different concerns with keeping a horse entire.
Paula
No, pe, the point is that anyone capable of getting through vet school and being licensed to practice would have an easier time doing a tubal ligation than an OVH, whether they were taught that or not, because it is a simpler piece of surgery.
RE: No, pe, the point is that anyone capable of getting through vet school and being licensed to practice would have an easier time doing a tubal ligation than an OVH, whether they were taught that or not, because it is a simpler piece of surgery.
Are you referring to the blog post I quoted? This was a quote from Dr. Patty Khuly VMD, MBA’s Blog http://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2010/april/ligations_vasectomies
It was not my sentiment, but hers.
Paula
No, it was her quote, your sentiment, as you were using it to bolster your arguments in favor of leaving domestic pets with intact gonads.
For the record, every case of canine prostatatitis I’ve seen, including one unholy abscess that required marsupialization, was in an intact male.
I’d have little issue with people wanting to keep their male dogs entire if the ones who feel that way didn’t seem predominantly also the ones who feel that it’s ok for them to run loose, to enter my property and harrass my dogs and stock,and to piss on my personal possessions at horse shows.
For the record I never speculated as to why I couldn’t find a vet to do it. She said that. Please condemn me for my words only. You can always refresh my memory and find me a quote where I speculated as to why vets won’t vasectomize.
RE: I’d have little issue with people wanting to keep their male dogs entire if the ones who feel that way didn’t seem predominantly also the ones who feel that it’s ok for them to run loose, to enter my property and harrass my dogs and stock,and to piss on my personal possessions at horse shows.
Rest assured I’d love to have my dogs entire, and they would not roam, they would be well trained, and I’ve yet to take any of my dogs to the barns where I ride. So hopefully you don’t have any issue with me keeping my dogs entire.
And for what it’s worth, the dogs that I know of who roam are all castrated and spayed.
Paula
If you vasectomize a dog, how do you check that the procedure was successful? In humans, there is testing done after a certain period of time and ummm… a number of ejaculations. The only way to do this is with fresh semen. Until you get the all clear, back-up protection is a must to avoid pregnancy.
Unless I’m missing something, it doesn’t sound like there can be any guarantee a dog is sterile after having a V.
I suppose you’d have to test the ejaculate the same way. Or you can vasectomize before sexual maturity -before 6 months perhaps? There’d be no disadvantage of early vasectomy as there is for early castration.
I’ve been rooting around the internet throughout this discussion and apparently alot of people are talking about it. For example people who compete in agility want the drive of an intact dog but don’t want to necessarily breed their dogs. So they are also looking at vasectomy versus castration. Isn’t that interesting? I wonder if herding dog people have the same concerns?
Paula
I have no problem with responsible owners keeping their animals intact (or getting them vasectomies), but I do think advocating that as being better than castration for the average dog owner is short-sighted at best. Intact dogs are more difficult for various reasons (this is based on a lot of personal experience with intact dogs, btw…there are plenty of very nice ones out there but they do take more training and careful socialization) and the type of person who is prepared to handle that is also the type of person who can and will weigh the pros and cons of various options and decide for themselves what is best.
And if most of your experience with other dog owners comes from kennel clubs and breed rescues then I don’t think you’re getting the full picture. I’ve been involved with various dog sport groups and have known tons of wonderful dog owners who I’m sure could easily handle an intact dog if they wanted. However, most of the pet owners I see are the type with 6 dogs running more or less amok, or the type who get home from work and cuddle up with their dog to watch TV rather than training and exercising the animal then wonders why it chokes itself and pulls on the leash when they want to go hiking with it, or who think that dogs who jump on the counters and on visitors are just doing what dogs do. And those are the ones who really love their pets but don’t really have the tools to handle them…I’ve met a lot of people who would rehome a puppy for not getting housetrained fast enough (and of course they’re not using very effective methods for that), who intentionally let their dogs roam and if they’re shot or hit by a car then oh well they’ll just get another one, who let their mutt bitches have as many litters as possible and just dump the pups they can’t give away at the pound or on the side of the road, etc. Seriously, most pet owners aren’t very good at it.
I feel very fortunate for the exposure I had to dogs and dog behavior. Just as easily as my expectations for training and behavior have been tailored by being exposed to excellent and savvy dog people, I could have been socialized to expect completely different standards and gone the other way.
I think for me it’s a matter of people having information upon which to base their decisions. The party line is that castration is better and healthier. Well, that is debatable isn’t it? The healthier part for sure since it seems other disease risks climb after castration. Better would depend on many things too, but again, castration is sold as the cure for bad behavior in dogs and we all know that the cure for bad behavior in dogs is training. A castrated dog doesn’t automatically walk a loose leash heel right? So those issues you cite about training and inactivity can affect dogs with or without testicles.
I think the two issues continue to be conflated. And the propaganda doesn’t help. It is not for me to tell you not to castrate your dog. But I will ask whether you have all the information to decide. I think it’s terrible that well-meaning, responsible people just trying to do the right thing are given less than complete information.
This is alot like the dog vaccine issues where people were questioning the policies of annually vaccinating their dogs when their dogs where showing protective titers considerably longer than a year. At first there was a lot of push back from establishment and alot of marginalizing of the “kooks”. Wouldn’t you know it that now dogs aren’t only getting rabies every three years, but their other boosters as well? How about the cancer diet? For a long time those who knew all poohpoohed the low carb cancer diet that some dog people were trying. Well a couple of years ago there was a human study of pancreatic tumor cell proliferation and they just love love loved their fructose diet.
I’m just about information. I read something that makes me start to think I don’t just dismiss it because its new or not establishment. That is not to say that after my research I might not dismiss it as having no merit. I just find it a good thing to have information.
Paula
