Men - it's not you we're neutering! RANT

[CrazyGuineaPigLady]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5858763]
I’ve been rooting around the internet throughout this discussion and apparently alot of people are talking about it. For example people who compete in agility want the drive of an intact dog but don’t want to necessarily breed their dogs. So they are also looking at vasectomy versus castration. Isn’t that interesting? [/QUOTE]

Why is that so interesting? I thought you were of the belief that testicles have little to do with behavior, or “drive”. Now that agility dog people have noted the difference, you’ve changed your tune and agree with many others on this thread?

[tradewind]

Threedogpack…Mine were all direct descendents of my original dogs…some were great, one threw himself out of a second story window to get at a bitch. Needless to say, since he was multi titled in conformation, field, and obedience, I was not neutering him…so I placed him with a vet friend of mine. I kept breeding rights, she got a dog that was about perfect behavior wise with the exception of bitches in season. I had turned down an offer of 30 grand for him from a foreign country, and an offer of 25 grand from a very very well known handler…She obviously could not have afforded a dog like him under normal circumstances…He was extremely happy with her. His son, is completely unflappable around in season bitches. I think they vary as much as people, horses, etc in their response to sexual stimuli…

[Trakehner]

Man, this really seems to hit a lot of buttons. All my cats are spayed/neutered (also declawed in front since they’re 100% indoor kitties and it was the furniture or front claws bye bye.

I’ve had one stallion, had to sell him when I couldn’t find a place to board him. Great stud, excellent babies, great jumper and showed without the Vics Vapo-
Rub in his nose at shows in case any slutty mares were squeeling around him for attention. I found the mares worse to deal with when in heat at the shows than he ever was…but, I was very very careful with handling him…Stallions can be deadly for the wrong person.

My mares were always intact, wasn’t worth spaying them (Plus, I like mare personalities, they’re “interesting” and safe full-hormone animals).

Don’t want to neuter or spay…your choice…but not everything involving males is personal or dysfunctional.

[paulaedwina]

I guess I’ve been going this way for a while because my hair is in dreadlocks, I don’t wear make up, I wear skirts (except when I ride), I’m a locavore as much as I can, ideally my dog(s) eat raw or home cooked, my cats have all their claws, my birds are flighted. I’m beginning to see a trend.

ETA Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
My pursuit of information can be a bit obsessive. I ran that through Google Translate to no avail, but I persisted and found out it means, “We gladly feast on those who would subdue us”?

Paula

[tradewind]

My cats have their claws, my chickens free range…etc…this does not have to do with neutering…I am not a sensitive new age girl in any respect. I have not seen enough evidence to convince me that neutering male dogs has any benefits other than keeping down the population. I do not believe it has any health benefits at all, unlike spaying which virtually eliminates pyo, and has breast health benefits if it is done before too many seasons have passed. I feel neutering males too young is detremental to their development. New evidence suggests that spaying/neutering at very young ages can have other negative physical side effects. I completely understand why shelters do this, but to pretend it has health benefits and no negatives is absurd. Especially when done on 8 week old puppies as many shelters have taken to doing.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=tradewind;5858809]
Threedogpack…Mine were all direct descendents of my original dogs…some were great, one threw himself out of a second story window to get at a bitch. Needless to say, since he was multi titled in conformation, field, and obedience, I was not neutering him…so I placed him with a vet friend of mine. I kept breeding rights, she got a dog that was about perfect behavior wise with the exception of bitches in season. I had turned down an offer of 30 grand for him from a foreign country, and an offer of 25 grand from a very very well known handler…She obviously could not have afforded a dog like him under normal circumstances…He was extremely happy with her. His son, is completely unflappable around in season bitches. I think they vary as much as people, horses, etc in their response to sexual stimuli…[/QUOTE]

Perhaps each of your dogs were very different. That has not been my experience.

[thatmoody]

I came from a “natural” culture as well. The old South. And we had a nickname for our “accidental” litters - posthole puppies (meaning that you threw the unwanted puppies down into the nearest postholes of the fence you were perpetually building). They also lose a large number of the litters to parvo and other diseases - the only reason many cultures are NOT overrun by feral dogs is natural attrition.

I got out of this culture deliberately and rather forcefully through education - I lived right down in the middle of it - hog guts and chittlins and all. It was really rather dreadful. My family still lives in a way that involves heartworms and dogfights and hogs in the backyard, which, truthfully, is the other side of that “natural” culture that you are espousing. You are fortunate to be able to pick and choose what you like about it - not everyone has that choice, and it’s rather elitist to do so, truthfully. Which is fine, as long as you acknowledge that this is true (ie. that you are picking and choosing from that lifestyle). I was fortunate enough to claw my way out of that life; learn that things could be different. But I don’t forget that it’s complex in that culture - there are many admirable things about handling dogs in there, as well - I did learn a lot about training dogs AND horses through this experience.

I think it’s romanticizing pastoral cultures to not acknowledge the other side of that argument. I’ve traveled extensively in Central America (El Salvador, Nicaragua, etc.) and was frankly traumatized by the condition of the animals there. It reminded me way too much of the rural South of my youth. We are lucky to be having this argument and to be able to pick and choose the behaviors we emulate from them :D.

So I suppose my point is; you are lucky to be able to make a decision to spay/castrate your animals - like so many things in life, it’s not always an academic decision in these cases, but comes down to long-held cultural beliefs, financial difficulties, etc.

[paulaedwina]

I couldn’t agree with you more. I am lucky. At Meeting once we were discussing the Quaker testimony of simplicity and I realized that our ability to practice it is a luxury because we are not destitute. When we decide to grow a garden, for example, if the garden fails we can go to the store. When poor people grow a garden it’s not an act of simplicity, it’s meeting a need for food.

I grew up in the Caribbean and have traveled a bit myself. I am practicing the luxury of choosing vasectomy over castration. If I didn’t have the option then I’d be faced with the same decisions as everybody else; castration or fertility.

But here I am, here we are, with this luxury to weigh the consequences, and I am ever grateful for it. I mean, consider the forum we’re on? We’re horse owners who pursue many a costly horse-owning activity. So we’re in the same place of luxury, the luxury of choice.

Paula

[thatmoody]

Thank you - that was VERY graceful. I suppose since I live within 5 miles of my family and have to fight with them regularly, it rankles a bit more and I tend to get more defensive than I should. I have combat fatigue, I suspect.

[paulaedwina]

I sensed no defensiveness. As for combat fatigue with your family: take a rest. I think Gene Rodenberry had the right idea when he developed the “Prime Directive”. Sometimes you have to try to remember you’re on the outside looking in at someone else’s culture. It helps.

Paula

[Trakehner]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5858915]
ETA Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
My pursuit of information can be a bit obsessive. I ran that through Google Translate to no avail, but I persisted and found out it means, “We gladly feast on those who would subdue us”?[/QUOTE]

This is the saying on the Addams family crest.

[thatmoody]

Hrmph, as a trained ethnographer, however, my field dictates that I recognize that just by being present, I interfere. :P. And yes, the Addams Family - I knew I’d seen that somewhere before! Pop culture 'R us - I watch entirely too many of those shows to keep them straight.

As a side note, my trainer’s friend breeds Rhodesian Ridgebacks, and my trainer has one of her older breeding males, and just had to have him castrated due to some health problems. He had a very uneventful recovery, as I housesat for her afterwards. Lovely dog, and I adore hers! Very high end show dogs, and I could never dream of owning one (akin to buying a horse, those dogs!) but I admire them from afar.

[paulaedwina]

Hrmph, as a trained ethnographer, however, my field dictates that I recognize that just by being present, I interfere. :P.

LOL! The ethnographer’s version of Schrödinger’s cat!

ETA: I’ve loved ridgebacks since I was adopted by my first one in 1997. I’d admired them as a child back in Trinidad, but I’d admired many dog breeds (I was obsessed with dogs like some girls are obsessed with horses). I found Milo, my heart dog, at the local pound. That was the beginning of the end.

Here is a very old picture when all 3 were alive (I hadn’t gone plain yet).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jocieposse/872354234/in/set-72157600883121213/

The two boys (Milo is behind Yoshi) http://www.flickr.com/photos/jocieposse/872353876/in/set-72157600883121213/

Paula