Larry Nassar abused some of his victims in an exam room with parents present.
I was involved in the HJ scene in the Los Angeles area in the early seventies, albeit not as a Flintridge member.
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I think it’s quite possible that JW picked and chose when/where and to whom he did the things he’s been accused of. I find it perfectly plausible, personally, that someone and her parents could come ride a couple days a week and do some shows and just not be around/be privvy to what was happening at the barn/stables when they were not there. Someone who is a predator and has been getting away with it is presumably somewhat savvy about how to conduct himself around people who are not part of the “inner circle.”
I boarded at a barn where one of my fellow boarders came out every night, wasted (like could barely walk). Sometimes with her child in the car. WASTED. The barn owner kicked her out when he found out. Aside from me, the barn owner, and maybe 2-3 other people who happened to be there when she came out (late after most of the boarders had long since left) I bet no one else had a clue.
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Ive been off the BB for quite a while, but if you think two years is a long time, my original post (which created incredible furor on the BB) was written 18 YEARS AGO - and included links to a trainer who had been indicted for molesting his students. NOTHING was done at the NGB level. And, many, many people did not want to even begin to discuss it.
Thank you COTH for an excellent and well researched article. There is still a lot to do. During the 18 years since the original thread two generations of young riders have had to deal with this. It shouldn’t be happening.
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As an adult over 60 who has dealt with my share of what we used to call wolves, I have witnessed tremendous change over the years in the workplace and society in general.
Nothing in my previous posts indicated that it was impossible for – something – to happen to these women when they were girls.
I started by naming the names that someone had requested, the presidents of the Riding Club during the 1970s. It seemed strange to me then, and it still does, that the Chronicle hadn’t bothered to research that. Those were the people, along with their fellow directors, who were responsible for conduct at the Club in those days. And just who was the unnamed director who said there had been some formal report and missing file? Strange omissions and innuendo when so many names were named.
Then I responded to someone who attacked a “culture” there of ignoring “criminal behavior.” That I reject from my own experience there, and because of common sense. Does anyone really think that both parents of a woman who now claims she was abused in those years just “looked the other way”? Presumably they didn’t know about it. And, therefore, nobody else did, either. It is so easy for people who weren’t around then, and may not even have been born at that time, to look back and say, “Everyone had to know.” No. I’m saying that there was no such culture at Flintridge. Period.
As Weatherford says, yes, of course every step possible should be taken to insure Safe Sport for our young people. Everyone, for that matter. Nobody that I know of disputes that. We have all learned a great deal about relationships between the genders – evolution has been underway since Adam and Eve. In any free society, that will continue into eternity. Maybe we should be looking forward more?
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[QUOTE=Two Lea;n10098403]
As an adult over 60 who has dealt with my share of what we used to call wolves, I have witnessed tremendous change over the years in the workplace and society in general.
Nothing in my previous posts indicated that it was impossible for – something – to happen to these women when they were girls.
I started by naming the names that someone had requested, the presidents of the Riding Club during the 1970s. It seemed strange to me then, and it still does, that the Chronicle hadn’t bothered to research that. Those were the people, along with their fellow directors, who were responsible for conduct at the Club in those days. And just who was the unnamed director who said there had been some formal report and missing file? Strange omissions and innuendo when so many names were named.
Then I responded to someone who attacked a “culture” there of ignoring “criminal behavior.” That I reject from my own experience there, and because of common sense. Does anyone really think that both parents of a woman who now claims she was abused in those years just “looked the other way”? Presumably they didn’t know about it. And, therefore, nobody else did, either. It is so easy for people who weren’t around then, and may not even have been born at that time, to look back and say, “Everyone had to know.” No. I’m saying that there was no such culture at Flintridge. Period.
As Weatherford says, yes, of course every step possible should be taken to insure Safe Sport for our young people. Everyone, for that matter. Nobody that I know of disputes that. We have all learned a great deal about relationships between the genders – evolution has been underway since Adam and Eve. In any free society, that will continue into eternity. Maybe we should be looking forward
Comments like this are precisely why so many of us feared to speak out. Victim blaming? Really? That is really unacceptable on every level.
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I’ve given my name here often and before this particular thread. I discount any comment by a first timer who claims to be out of the business for a long time but won’t use their name, frankly. If Two Lea wants to be considered credible while denying this entire thread has validity then I’ll need a name to go along with that denial.
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:love-struck::love-struck::love-struck::love-struck:
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I don’t think she’s denying the underlying allegations at all. She’s denying that EVERYONE must have known and that EVERYONE participated in a cover up. Maybe she can clarify, but I didn’t read her as denying the abuse-- just the extent to which everyone at the riding club knew contemporaneously.
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I agree with vxf111. While you could easily read that Two Lea was denying all allegations, I do not think that was her intention. I think she is meaning to deny that idea posted here by several people that everyone must’ve have known and therefore was complicit.
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Two Lea, how old were you when you were riding at Flintridge?
Look, I think it’s a hard defense to make (rhetorically, morally and actually) of the “culture” of a place that was happy for you as simply inconsistent with individuals getting molested.
In our current moment, I think it’s rhetorically impossible. Because you can’t disprove the claims of people who have stories of abuse, you end up looking as though you are on the wrong side of history if you cite you experience as a counter-factual to that. And, as Laurierace put it, your having watched your kid walk to school (like a hawk or not) has no bearing on whether or not someone else’s kid was abducted.
It’s also morally impossible because for so, so, long this kind of anecdotal, personal evidence (where N=1) was trotted out as a basis for denying someone else’s claim (N=1 there, too, albeit a different N). So if logic dictates that these are equally valid accounts and contradictory to one another, we have to wonder (and worry) about why victims were not believed for so long. Also, I think the example of Larry Nasser fondling female athletes with a parent in the same room is mind-blowing. I can’t see how that can happen in my world (or in either adult’s world), but there it is. So, clearly, we believed the wrong kinds of “evidence” for a long time and screwed over a lot of victims. We have to change.
And the “actual” part-- look, if you weren’t molested and know one else who was, then good for you. But that’s about all you can say in the face of someone else’s claim that they were.
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That is very sad to hear. I (naively, at the time) thought that maybe there was some kind of “real” love there and the fact that they later married seemed promising (though also a bit weird, but at that point she was an adult). How sad. I’ve been out of that level of competition for quite a while, but is it still common knowledge? Do you think there is anything that can legitimately be done?
Actually there is a common belief in the mental health field that sexual assault or molestation is so often repressed that the only correct answers to the question of whether one was a victim is yes and I don’t know.
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I don’t believe Two Lea is denying the allegations at all or trying to victim blame. I do think she was trying to explain that it was entirely possible to be there at Flintridge during this time and not know anything about this. That absolutely must have been true for some of these directors, because their own daughters were victims. I think her post also explains that this is quite a large club with a lot of people around and it sounds from the allegations like JW often focused his efforts on one girl at a time (notice how one of the victims stopped being abused when he set his sights on a new, younger girl). I find her story entirely consistent and plausible with a situation in which an abuser can continue significant abuse.
Look at all the teachers who abuse students – they probably have hundreds more students that they don’t abuse and who go through their classrooms untouched and no one knows anything about it. It is NEVER the victim’s fault, of course – what these abusers are is excellent at picking a victim who will stay silent, and they latch onto that one. We had one in my junior high who abused girls this way. Most of us never got a second look from him – the ones who would say something. again, this is NOT the victim’s fault – they have a right to be perfectly safe whether they have the personality and/or life experiences that make them more comfortable coming forward or not. But these evil people latch onto weakness and exploit it. It is THEIR fault.
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Just have to chime in here about a couple of things. First, Flintridge was a very restrictive, exclusive and expensive Country Club with many activities besides the stable. Like Golf, various activities around the Rose Parade and Rose Bowl and social gatherings unrelated to horses. It was a BIG deal to be a member. My dad had a coworker who was a member, to the best of my recollection he served on some board or other, kept his trail horse at home and never had a thing to do with the barn…that’s the only way I ever set foot on the place before the mid 70s, as an invited guest accompanied by a member for fancy lunch at the Clubhouse. After about the mid 70s, they opened the Riding Club grounds up to host a couple of Open Shows ( LAcounty rated, I think), even then we didn’t have access to the main barn or rest of the club grounds, Don’t doubt some general members and even board members didn’t ride or have anything to do with the riding operation, like my Dads co worker.
Have little doubt those parents who did drive their own kids out for lessons went to the Clubhouse or got in a round of golf or just dropped them off and came back or maybe had the help do it. Just like parents still do today, kids were barn rats.
My actual contact with JW was in the barns at the shows on the old Open AHSA circuit, all the disciplines showed and socialized together so there was always alot of talk He was always nice enough to me, gave me a late night ride back from an exhibitors party to the parking lot at the old Indio Date Festival. Helped me with my Western horse once in a schooling ring. But I was well into my 20s. He was quite good at hiding his other side and charming his way out of any hint of scandal. But too many repeated the same story over too many years to be just disgruntled ex clients oron the short end of a sales deal. Too many other trainers, some of my show buddies and more then a few parents said to never train with him.
He was a bully tooo…remember the roached manes thing? Without asking the clients. They took it in silence, paid the bill.
I often wonder what would have happened if investigative reporting had exsisted then and/or it was anywhere but an exclusive CC in La La Land.
Oh, some of the board members from the 60s and early 70s are gone so they aren’t going to speak up. Even if they wanted to rock that boat, we’ll never know.
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Well, findeight, this is mostly right. But it does show the fallacy of relying on any one memory. And that when people hear something repeated over and over again it becomes the truth even if it wasn’t at the time.
Actually, Flintridge didn’t have a golf course or any affiliation with a golf course or golf club that I know of. My memory could be wrong. I wasn’t playing golf. My dad had to go somewhere else to play golf. Some of us wanted to have a tennis court or a swimming pool at the Club. That got voted down. If my own memory is right, that happened a couple of times. As for “fancy lunches” at the Clubhouse, I laughed out loud. They were anything but fancy. You were lucky to get a decent peanut butter and jelly sandwich in the tiny rickety kitchen. Unless you brought your own from home. As for the shows, the children’s show in the spring was around forever, and the amateur show in the fall. Those were the only two shows for a long time, but anyone could come from anywhere.
I don’t consider the “roached mane thing” to be anything like “bullying.” To those who knew Jimmy well, he was anything but a bully. But he was in charge, certainly, and we had to wear boots and breeches, and some of us didn’t like that. He set the rules, picked the tack, and that was his job. He explained why. He did come from the cavalry, after all. At least that’s what I remember. There were strict ring rules. His lessons could be sort of funny in that way. All kinds of drills. Figuring out what speed you were galloping. How long your stride was.
On the roached manes, I remember it very clearly. I don’t remember anyone liking it. Nobody was “silent” about it. But he explained it. He was tired of everyone complaining how much it cost to have be braided again and again. The braiders were charging a lot. We didn’t want to braid our own horses. So he said okay, we’ll roach all the manes and shave the tops of the tails, and then we won’t need to braid. There’s no rule that we have to. After a big uproar the fuss died down and the manes grew back. At least everyone (including the judges) knew what barn our horses came from. But most of us weren’t happy, that’s right. Then when we started braiding again, nobody complained about how much it cost. Maybe a method in the madness?
A bully? No, I don’t think so. That’s my own memory. Yours is different.
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Sorry, I must digress for a moment.
So in your recollection, he roached all the manes to teach a lesson to the customers? Not the braiders?
If so, that would be different from the story I’ve heard about it all these years.
As for the primary topic, I have nothing to add, other than that I’m so terribly sorry for anyone who had to go through such things. For many of us, horses have always been a way to forget about the cares of the world. How awful to think that it wasn’t the case for everyone.
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I don’t think La Canada Flintridge Country Club and Flintridge Riding Club are the same entity? They are about 3 miles from each other…and there is no mention of the other entity on the histories of either facility.
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No affiliation with a golf course. La Canada-Flintridge is a town so there are a fair number of things with the Flintridge name in the area. May have been a group from the club that also played golf together.
This weekend is the 97th (96th?) annual (children’s) horse show so it’s been around for awhile. It’s now a USEF (formerly AHSA) show and has been that for probably at least 50 years, but I don’t think it started that way. Now run by a professional management company, not the club and both this and the fall show are open shows, not just for juniors or amateurs.
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Regarding the idea that adults would have raised he**, etc if “misbehavior” came to light back then and it wouldn’t have been tolerated if they had known… First, the many stories here says that isn’t so if the person is powerful. Second, thinking back on my own childhood and young adulthood in the 70’s and 80’s, even if the person wasn’t powerful, things might not have been said. I remember one relative who all women called a womanizer and literally stayed away from and ignored that relative. It was expected that women (and girls) just “deal with it”.
Very sad - I hope we are getting better…
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Good point, MHM.
As I recall, he roached the manes to teach everyone a lesson. True, he was annoyed at the braiders, but he was also annoyed that people who had plenty of money were complaining about a relatively minor expense. He used to tell us all the time, “there are lots of ways to skin any cat,” and “you have many tools in your toolbox, so don’t forget what they all are.”
The braiders learned that there was an alternative, especially if everyone started roaching. Which pretty clearly was not going to happen. And IIRC, that was pretty much the end of everyone braiding tails except for special classes or showing off.
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