#metoo and Jimmy Williams

[retreadeventer]

I was also able to read DiAnn Langer’s account of her life as a young rider in a horrific situation. I grew up showing A hunters in this era and remember the top riders and trainers of the day as being so aloof, so cool, so much better than us lowly juniors and amateurs…now I think back and realize it was pressure of an immense kind that caused that…DiAnn’s story is heartbreaking, mostly because I can relate to the utter devotion to the barn and horses and the destructive dedication to riding and showing even when the men in the barn are complete pigs. There is no question many of the men in the hunter and jumper world - indeed in the entire horse world - are there because of the ease of being around and manipulating young girls.
My heart breaks for her. Beyond horrifying.

[sdlbredfan]

@Mac123

I think it’s important to continue the discussion, and to really think through things. It took me 30 minutes of thinking through what bothered me about your post to really land on it.

Empowering or not, your inner strength does not mean you won’t be assaulted in the future. Like I said, it’s a coping mechanism. And it’s a smart one. I’m not at all saying that us females shouldn’t do what we can to stay aware and be safe. I myself have taken an extensive self-defense class and operate entirely differently now because of it.

But it still doesn’t mean that I won’t be assaulted, inner strength or confidence regardless.

In my opinion, the problem with how you’re thinking of this is as follows:

Let’s say you’re a strong, confident woman who is 5’9, blue eyes, dark hair, works out, is otherwise a tough badass sort of woman. Let’s say you’re leaving the gym at night. You do all the right things - you walk out with a guy from the gym, your keys and cell phone are out, you check your car before entering, immediately lock the doors when you get in. You check your mirrors for a tail, you’re projecting the energy that anyone who messes with you will be messed with. You’re rocking this.

However, unbeknownst to you, the man you walked out of the gym with happens to be a serial killer and you happen to strongly resemble his ex girlfriend of 40 years ago who cheated on him. He’s been working out his pain and suffering over the past 10 years by kidnapping, raping, and murdering women who resemble the ex. Over the next few months, you strike up a gym friendship with this man, as he’s a happy, likable, caring fellow. One night, you don’t notice that he follows you out of the parking lot when you pull out. He follows you home, and with the element of surprise on his side, kidnaps and rapes you. You’re able to escape, but now you have to live with it.

You were strong. You did everything right. You had inner strength, you practiced safe tactics and in the end, by your logic, it wasn’t enough. So you self blame. You shouldn’t have been nice to him. You shouldn’t have let your guard down. You should have noticed him following you. Right?

Wrong. You did all the right things, as we ALL should. But sometimes, people are evil enough that they still succeed. And if that happens, the victim shouldn’t be left wondering what they should’ve done to prevent it. Because sometimes nothing can be done.

To make this JW relevant, what if one of his victims, being a young girl, wasn’t super tough and secure? What if she was unsure of what to do when confronted with his attention and power? Is the lack of her “inner strength,” is her vulnerability, then, a reason why he abused her? No, in my opinion not. It’s perhaps something he looked for in his victims, but it still isn’t her fault that he took advantage of that.

The thing is, and if you read up on any amount of crime you’ll know this is true, the sickos out there are attracted to all kinds of crazy things. We simply can’t avoid being all of those things.

To be clear, we should ALL be smart, strong, intentional about our safety, etc. because unfortunately, we have to. But if we make a mistake and get attacked for it - it’s still not our fault. If we leave the gym distracted and don’t have our keys out that 1 time…still not our fault. It’s our predator’s fault. And actually, I find that to be relatively empowering.

OMG! I am so sorry to read that happened to you.

[sdlbredfan]

@Bartleby

I think those discussing the reasoning why perpetrators target their victims are missing that sexual predators cannot all be lumped together. The child molester and the date rapist are disparate crimes and motivations. They are only under the same umbrella because of the sexual nature of the crime but really cannot even be studied by the same metrics.

My best childhood friend was molested by someone we were both very close to. Someone who had similar access to both of us, yet I was never targeted. Point blank his answer to why I was not abused, “She would have told.” He assessed us both and realized for whatever reason that he could not groom me enough to cultivate my silence. That may not have been because of any trait I innately possessed, it could simply have been because of life circumstances. She was vulnerable in a way that I was not to this particular predator.

The rapist that grabbed my dorm mate as she jogged across campus did not give two hoots about grooming or whether she would tell about her assault. He did however care that she was jogging right passed where he was walking, that she was brunette and that she was wearing a running skirt instead of shorts because he “liked the idea of easy access”. She was vulnerability to this predator in a way that I was as well.

My dearest adult friend was molested by her grandfather, her sister was spared despite being only a year and a half younger and having the exact same access. They even look eerily similar. Only he will ever know why he chose the one.

The date rapist rarely rapes every single date. There are always stories about other women who went out with him and were not assaulted. Whatever reason made him chose his victim is not the reasoning that the other perpetrators chose theirs.

Vulnerability is not culpability, but it is a factor. Each of us is vulnerable to predation in different aspects of our lives. As a child I was not vulnerable to my friend’s perpetrator. As a college age adult I also was not vulnerable to to my dorm mate’s perpetrator, I am blonde, do not jog and do not wear skirts, I would never have been a target he selected. As a working age adult I was vulnerable to the sexual harassment of a boss. He did not target all female employees, but some of us were vulnerable in his eyes. None of these targeted traits were in anyway things the victims could control, but they were still vulnerabilities.

Vulnerability, subjective physical attractiveness in the perpetrators’ eyes, accessibility, reminder of an object of past hurt/rage, all of these can absolutely be the reason a perpetrator targets their victim. None of these traits are EVER the fault or responsibility of the victim, but it does a disservice to discount any of them as factors when we are trying to understand the dynamics of sexual predation.

I believe this is ‘best.post.ever’ on this topic.

[JER]

@Bristol Bay

By the way, JW was the resident trainer, meaning that he lived in a house on the Flintridge property.

I’m very curious to see how Flintridge handles these revelations. He designed the barns; the ring is named after him and so is one of the cross country jumps. They weren’t figuring all this would come out, although it is common knowledge around the club.

Yes. I wasn’t in SoCal until after his era but ffs, everyone seemed to know about this.

(The COTH story surprised me because I didn’t know the story hadn’t been made public before. You’d usually hear a story about how JW was a great horse trainer - this doesn’t seem to be in dispute - but then you’d hear ‘but you know, he was a paedophile.’ Not really the correct term but that’s the way it was put to me many times.)

[Go_Fish]

Late to the party here, but I rode at the same shows as Flintridge back in the day. My western trainers were close with Mr. Williams. His behavior wasn’t exactly a secret. I remember him and Susie being “close.” I’m surprised that all this time has passed without his behavior being acknowledged. I guess the Me Too movement has rekindled memories and the ability to speak about it now.

[findeight]

Late on here…but I also rode Western back then and JW was the go to as far as problem solving regardless of saddle. JW was brilliant, no other way to put it, at getting into the mind of any horse. He was always nice to me but it was pointed out I was too old for him, in my mid 20s. Got groped in the tackroom by my own trainer. Things were very different, mentioned it to somebody and they just said I had to expect such things as I was attractive.

JW was a pedophile, he was very much a dirty old man. It was no secret but nobody spoke openly about it until AK included her experiences in a book or something she wrote ?? years back. Not met with hugs either, was at WEF that winter and there were whispers behind her back …sort of how could she. And I believe Susie did not see a thing or did but didn’t connect the dots as he had her brainwashed.

Oh, knew about Barney Ward, even way out west riding Western.

Its about dam time this came out, maybe it will help those STILL being taken advantage of realize what it is, that its not normal, doesn’t have to happen and to speak up.

[CindyCRNA]

@fordtraktor

There is an issue with WHO to tell. i know I never mentioned my assaults to my parents because I knew they wouldn’t let me go to horse shows any more. I was poor and a working student and horses were my life and I didn’t want to lose that.

My male trainer was great. I also took lessons from a few female trainers who were complete bullies in other ways. And some good ones!

I wasn’t assaulted by a trainer as a child but by a family member who in my eyes then (and now) had a higher ranking in the family than I did and I thought I would be in trouble. I also knew if I said anything I would never be allowed out of the house. Your story reminded me of that now at age 55. I hadn’t considered that. Thank you. These are valuable conversations.

[Peggy]

This links to an article about Dorothy Sandusky and how/why she didn’t think her husband was molesting young boys. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-media-zone/201207/dorothy-sandusky-woman-who-saw-nothing

[NeedsAdvil]

@Mara

I’m going to guess that’s a certain equitation trainer whose Maclay-winning wife has since divorced him? I wonder if he’s back to his old tricks…

Nope this one wasn’t a Maclay winner. Guessing you are talking about Stacia? As someone else said, at the time, the trainer I was talking about was in his 40s. He is probably pushing late 50’s, maybe 60 now. Sad that it’s so rampant that there are multiple people this could be. Very sad.

[betonbill]

@Bristol Bay

By the way, JW was the resident trainer, meaning that he lived in a house on the Flintridge property.

I’m very curious to see how Flintridge handles these revelations. He designed the barns; the ring is named after him and so is one of the cross country jumps. They weren’t figuring all this would come out, although it is common knowledge around the club.

Flintridge aided and abetted his behavior by ignoring it and hoping it wouldn’t come out in the news. They are equally culpable. One would hope that they will now do the right thing and rename all of the items that bear his name. As far as his legacy–I think in view of these revelations it’s now toast. Hopefully that will stand as a lesson to current trainers. If not, they need to be exposed as well.

[Judysmom]

@NeedsAdvil

There are still trainers like this doing a booming business. I can think of one in NJ who was well into his 40’s and started an affair with a student when she was 14-15. Her parents were never around, they paid the bills and shipped her off to shows. He was also banging everyone else he could at the time, the younger the better. Everyone knew it was going on, but what could we do? He eventually married one of the girls. It still creeps me out.

I was thinking of him as well when I read the article.

[JanM]

Peggy-I don’t believe a word Mrs. Sandusky says about anything. I think she is a whole lot smarter than her predator husband, and no matter how many times she claims she knew nothing, I don’t believe her. She just wants to keep her big house, and her cushy pension. And now that two of the adopted sons have told about their abuse, then it’s is incredible that no one knew.

I don’t believe she didn’t hear the screams, or knew why those children were adopted, and that little boys were going on trips, and spending days with her husband. I think it’s part of the fact that some people simply don’t care about children, especially those that are vulnerable and powerless.

[Moli]

Betonbill Summed it up as well as anyone could!
Flintridge Riding Club is not like being at a trainer’s barn Where are your only financial obligation might be board /training… … when things go poorly in that situation, all you have to do is load up your horse and have a destination.
Flintridge is a private club, requires an initiation fee, and dues that are above and beyond the charges for each Horse. Added on to that situation are the social pressures of living in the Pasadena area. This might be very true with other trainers in other situations and other areas….However, Flintridge Riding Club had a core group of members who were socially prominent and backed Jimmy Williams with a result of holding/fostering the prestige nature of FRC.
It is really a shame that none of those people during that era had the moral courage to step forward in challenge Jimmy. A good many of them would spend the major portion of their day at Flintridge , as it had a small dining room and eating facilities.
And with horse loving juniors, parents didn’t relish leaving FRC, as they had quite an investment both socially and financially. This unique nature of Flintridge allowed and fostered Jimmie’s moral Improprieties.
Stepping forward and “bucking” this system was almost impossible. We can look back and ask how this all happened….However, shame on all of the members of Flintridge who knew about it and allowed it to continue.

[Mac123]

@sdlbredfan

OMG! I am so sorry to read that happened to you.

Oh gosh, I’m sorry, I should have been more clear. The situation in my post was a hypothetical example. I’ve had a share of sexual harassment, including by a trainer I worked for, but that example was just meant to more clearly show my point.

[mroades]

sort of like being on the US Gymnastics team…sigh

[poltroon]

I enjoyed this essay by Molly Ringwald: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/personal-history/what-about-the-breakfast-club-molly-ringwald-metoo-john-hughes-pretty-in-pink

[Bobby7]

@fordtraktor

There was an extensive thread on it in the Eventing forum and COTH mods repeatedly deleted the name from posts. Quite a few posters named the accused, all deleted. The accused sounds litigious so I don’t really blame them but it is disappointing to have that “policy” then discarded when the accused is deceased.

i am not in camp Accused, to be clear…I just feel the Eventing thread should have not been altered. Full disclosure, I was sexually harassed at horse events by two employees but never a BNT. In some ways that is very hard because there are no witnesses and nobody cares if a random groom grabs your ass and boobs multiple times, always at weird times like 5 am at the wash rack when you both have greys to groom.

Can you PM me who it was… I am wondering if it is the same person I have heard about.

[spotnnotfarm]

@Bobby7

Can you PM me who it was… I am wondering if it is the same person I have heard about.

I will be honest, this bothers me. Jimmy Williams was outed mostly because he is dead. Nothing can be done accept the victims are free to speak about the abuse they suffered, and his legacy is tarnished. However, he effectively got away with it.

On this thread and the eventing thread there are “whispers” about people that are alive and still preying on girls/women. It is sad to that they are getting away with it and being held accountable. Why can’t they be named? Is it because it is essentially hearsay? Are people afraid of a lawsuit? I would think if enough victims came forward, then the predators could be run out of the sport and hopefully serve jail time.

[Moli]

@spotnnotfarm

I will be honest, this bothers me. Jimmy Williams was outed mostly because he is dead. Nothing can be done accept the victims are free to speak about the abuse they suffered, and his legacy is tarnished. However, he effectively got away with it.

On this thread and the eventing thread there are “whispers” about people that are alive and still preying on girls/women. It is sad to that they are getting away with it and being held accountable. Why can’t they be named? Is it because it is essentially hearsay? Are people afraid of a lawsuit? I would think if enough victims came forward, then the predators could be run out of the sport and hopefully serve jail time.

[Synthesis]

@betonbill

Flintridge aided and abetted his behavior by ignoring it and hoping it wouldn’t come out in the news. They are equally culpable. One would hope that they will now do the right thing and rename all of the items that bear his name. As far as his legacy–I think in view of these revelations it’s now toast. Hopefully that will stand as a lesson to current trainers. If not, they need to be exposed as well.

That’s why I make reference to willful ignorance. Its SO much easier, convenient, profitable etc if you ‘don’t know’ that your prestigious trainer is preying on the replaceable students. Its remarkable the lengths people will go to ‘not know’.

We need to make it a habit to ask ourselves what the protector has to lose when they defend someone accused of deeply unethical behavior. The bigger the name, the more people there are with an interest in not-knowing.