Micklem Bridle Rules Question

[flaxenfilly23]

[QUOTE=alibi_18;8600937]
Just to point out that your comparison doesn’t work.
O-ring / Loose ring is the type of cheek pieces and determine the type snaffle bit it is : Loose ring, D-Bit, Eggbutt, fulmer, Full cheek, half cheek, Baucher, Kimberwick, pelham, Dutch gag/continental/pessoa/3-ring, bevel,wilson, etc.)

Dr Bristol is a type of mouthpiece. This particular mouthpiece could be found in different snaffle bit : D-bit Dr. Bristol, Loose ring Dr Bristol, Full Cheek Dr Bristol.
Other type of mouthpieces : single jointed, double jointed (french link (or lozenge, or berry), Dr Bristol, etc), mullen mouth, segunda, double snaffle, waterford, wings, etc.

Then you have the shape of the mouthpiece: ported, slow/twisted/wire, ergonomic, etc…

And then you can add some extras: copper inlays, barrels, rollers, different types of joints (like revolvers, locking)…

Finally, they come in different material: hard rubber, soft rubber, happy mouth, sweet iron, argentan, aurigan, sensogan, stainless, never rust (brass), cyprium, salox, other different copper alloys, etc…[/QUOTE]

While you are absolutely correct, most Dr. Bristol’s I see come with an eggbut cheekpiece. Also, the reason I specified Dr Bristol as opposed to just an eggbut is that the cheek pieces on each tend to be slightly different (Dr Bristols [I]tend[I] to have slightly more of an oval shaped ring while most eggbuts I see have a more circular shaped ring.

Dr Bristol eggbut - http://www.englishhabit.com/french-link-eggbutt.aspx
“Regular” eggbut - http://www.englishhabit.com/metalab-hollow-medium-weight-eggbutt.aspx

I do understand that there are different shapes in eggbuts (and that they are both technically eggbuts) but if someone just does a quick google image search the first picture that pulls up when you search each is pretty typical of the norm for them. But again, you are absolutely correct, just pointing out why I labeled it the way I did. I have since gone back and added in eggbut to the description.

[cleozowner]

[QUOTE=Kolsch;8601283]

I’ve never tried a drop on my Micklem loving horse because I’ve yet to find one on the cheap that has an adjustable noseband so it would fit correctly.[/QUOTE]

Bobby’s makes one.

[atr]

Unfortunately, I think the Micklem is the wrong choice of bridle with a full cheek snaffle. The rings are just in the wrong place as your pictures show. That looks pretty dangerous to me getting caught up like that. I’d change one or the other, maybe try a regular eggbutt snaffle with the same mouthpiece before you give up on the Micklem?

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=Kolsch;8601283]
I might have missed it upthread, but have you ever tried a drop noseband and using the fulmer with keepers? I know that some people use a fulmer without keepers, but in general most people do and if a trainer suggested to me to use a fulmer I’d assume they meant with the keepers.

I’ve never tried a drop on my Micklem loving horse because I’ve yet to find one on the cheap that has an adjustable noseband so it would fit correctly.[/QUOTE]

Bobby’s Tack makes an adj. drop in brown or black. It sells for $45.00 @ Tackzone, but any tack shop that deals with Bobby’s can order it. www.bobbystack.com item# 202-B or search for noseband.

Oops Cleozowner already posted this info.

[csaper58]

OP… you are using a single jointed snaffle mouth, w. Fulmer cheeks and no bit keepers?

That configuration lets the mouth piece rotate so the that, when engaged, the mouth piece points forward at the front teeth, not up into the roof of the mouth. The full cheeks keep the mouth consistently in that position, and help with steering.

Are you wanting to keep this bit, and find a noseband your horse likes? Or

Are you wanting a bit, that will fit/function similarly, that will work with the Micklem bridle?

These are two ways to skin the same cat. Are we exploring one direction more than the other, or both options equally?

[Mondo]

Thanks No Such for the interesting rationale. I wasn’t sad at all! Still shaking my head, though. Yes - your logic makes sense to me, but as a dressage rider, I am all too aware that snaffle bits were designed for contact - western riders don’t ride on (what we would call) contact - even in a snaffle. Your understanding of the purpose of the cavesson is correct, however, they will not prevent the bit (in an extreme circumstance I would hope) from being pulled all the way through the horse’s mouth. I know, because I’ve seen it done. It’s why many people lunge with the lunge line over the horse’s head and clipped to the bit on the off side. So I think cavesson vs. chin strap is a bit of an apples-oranges comparison. Still, I have always wondered what the western folks thought they needed it for and yes, the few times I’ve seen a chin strap or even a curb chain, on a snaffle it’s been on a western bridle. I’m betting the pepole using those bridles would never have occasion to worry about such a condition as pulling the bit all the way through. Cheers!

[csaper58]

I’m sure the ‘pepole’ using those bridles know how to spell ‘pepole’ though!!!

I think most knowledgeable people (dressage or western) would agree that if a cavesson is being used, and the bit can be pulled thru the mouth; either the cavesson is too loose, or the rings/cheek pieces of the bit are too small.

The competent western people use a correctly adjusted chin strap only on 3 inch rings and only if a noseband is not used. If you can pull that set-up thru a horse’s mouth, you both need to go back to square one in your training.

Most of the western folk I know use a cavesson for one of three purposes, to control/discourage a gaping mouth, or when riding in rough country where the bridle might be scraped off by a tree branch or such, or if they must use a tie-down

Can we get back to the OP’s original topic? I find it apropos to my current bridling woes.

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=Mondo;8602337]
I am all too aware that snaffle bits were designed for contact - western riders don’t ride on (what we would call) contact - even in a snaffle. [/QUOTE]

True. And historically, in the Vaquero tradition, snaffle bits were not used at all. Horses were started in a bosal and transitioned to a curb. I once read that the old time California vaqueros believed that snaffles were only useful for driving horses and for Englishmen.

When I was a kid, you rarely saw anyone riding western in a snaffle except maybe during the early stages of training.

On the other hand, what’s the harm in riding a horse with a snaffle without constant contact? Or using a chin strap on said snaffle? It no more of an affectation than everybody in the hunter ring using a standing martingale whether their horse needs it or not. [shrug]

Anyway, one of my hot buttons is when people mock others for doing things differently than they do. As long as it’s not dangerous or causing the horse discomfort or damage, what difference does it make? And why contribute to the perception that dressage riders are a bunch of judgy snobs?

[leheath]

[QUOTE=csaper58;8601892]
OP… you are using a single jointed snaffle mouth, w. Fulmer cheeks and no bit keepers?

That configuration lets the mouth piece rotate so the that, when engaged, the mouth piece points forward at the front teeth, not up into the roof of the mouth. The full cheeks keep the mouth consistently in that position, and help with steering.

Are you wanting to keep this bit, and find a noseband your horse likes? Or

Are you wanting a bit, that will fit/function similarly, that will work with the Micklem bridle?

These are two ways to skin the same cat. Are we exploring one direction more than the other, or both options equally?[/QUOTE]

Yes, you are correct regarding the bit configuration and the reason I use it.

I am interested in either of the two options you listed so am willing to explore both equally. My horse has often seemed uncomfortable in any kind of bridle (even a light-weight, soft nylon bridle with a plain cavesson just tight enough to prevent flopping), so I am seeking a more comfortable option. She is slightly better in a normal bridle without a noseband, but that isn’t show legal, so not a long term solution. The science behind the Micklem bridle seems sound to me, and twice she put her head in this bridle which she has never done before (although that was after riding with the lower strap done up behind the bit), so that is why I am trying to make it work.

The Tota Comfort Noseband looks like a great option, but out of my price range unless I can find one used.

I am willing to change my bit if I can find one that is of similar function to the single-jointed fulmer with no bit keepers.

[csaper58]

this bit may work www.sstack.com/english_d-ring_smooth/robart-pinchless-dee-ring-bit/ because

1. the d-ring gives help with steering, same as your fulmer

2. this d-ring will not pinch the horse’s lips, same as your fulmer

3. this is a thin single joint snaffle, same as your fulmer (?)

4. this shape of d-ring (more oval) will allow the mouth piece to rotate in a fashion most similar to your fulmer.

It is a size 5" on sale for $14.99

If you need a larger size Korsteel Hunter Dee Snaffle is very similar www.valleyvet.com has it in 5 1/2 item# 35956 for $21.95.

[csaper58]

If you want to keep your bit, look at the Bobby’s Tack adjustable drop noseband mentioned in posts 61 & 63.

[leheath]

Thanks, will check out that bit as an alternative!

[rebecca_yount]

leheath, just saw your PM. Sent you a reply.

[rebecca_yount]

Beowulf, sent you a PM.

[lorilu]

Dr. Bristols are not legal. French links are legal. And in a later post I see links identified as a Br. Bristol yet they are in fact French link bits.

[QUOTE=flaxenfilly23;8599875]
I had the same issue you are having with my mare. I finally tossed the o-ring and went with an eggbut Dr Bristol snaffle. It fits her perfectly now.

o-ring - Could not get the lower strap to fit properly without interfering with the bit. Even with the bit pulled up higher in her mouth it just was not working for me.
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc494/flaxenfilly23/image1%202.jpeg

Eggbut Dr Bristol bit - fits her perfectly
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc494/flaxenfilly23/image2.jpeg[/QUOTE]

[leheath]

Thought I would post an update. I rode tonight with the noseband back to the higher adjustment with the bit higher in her mouth and she seemed OK with it (much happier than she was with the noseband lower last time I rode). She still definitely prefers the Micklem bridle to “normal” bridles, even with the lower strap in front of the bit. However, even with the bit higher in the mouth, the cheek pieces can get caught in the D rings. So I will look for alternate bits such as those suggested to me at my local tack shop.

I’m also still considering the Tota noseband…will go look for more feedback on it.