"Millennial Grooms Are Ruining the Equestrian Industry"

[toady123]

[QUOTE=Halt Near X;8603596]
Nothing.

It’s not like most barn owners are sitting on huge profit margins and refusing to pay the working students because it’s always been done that way. Other industries have gone through similar shifts away from free internships/apprenticeships… but they had the margins to do so. The equestrian industry? I’m not sure the economics are there in the vast majority of barns.[/QUOTE]

Then they should not be in business. It’s exploitive and ILLEGAL not to pay (or compensate in some way) people for the hours they put in.

I won’t ride at a barn that does this. Period. I won’t support this kind of practice.

I do think it’s fine if the compensation comes in other forms - e.g. folks who work off board, lessons, accommodation etc. They are getting some kind of value for their work.

But to expect someone to work long days with no vacation for less than minimum wage (and then be SURPRISED that you are having trouble keeping folks) is just bad business practice.

I would be interested to know how many barns really ‘need’ to do this. I have been at a lot of barns, and the ones who practice this kind of BS are actually few and far between. So to say that it NEEDS to be done this way because it’s too expensive, just does not ring true to me, since there absolutely are PLENTY out there who manage.

In my experience the few who do it this way just don’t know how to run a business, don’t know how to keep a barn full, and therefore need to cut corners to stay afloat.

[Dee-Vee]

[QUOTE=toady123;8603881]
Then they should not be in business. It’s exploitive and ILLEGAL not to pay (or compensate in some way) people for the hours they put in.

I won’t ride at a barn that does this. Period. I won’t support this kind of practice.

I do think it’s fine if the compensation comes in other forms - e.g. folks who work off board, lessons, accommodation etc. They are getting some kind of value for their work.

But to expect someone to work long days with no vacation for less than minimum wage (and then be SURPRISED that you are having trouble keeping folks) is just bad business practice.

I would be interested to know how many barns really ‘need’ to do this. I have been at a lot of barns, and the ones who practice this kind of BS are actually few and far between. So to say that it NEEDS to be done this way because it’s too expensive, just does not ring true to me, since there absolutely are PLENTY out there who manage.

In my experience the few who do it this way just don’t know how to run a business, don’t know how to keep a barn full, and therefore need to cut corners to stay afloat.[/QUOTE]

Right on Toady…I am there beside you.

Let’s not forget that some of these exploitive practices are not just the domaine of small operations. I can cite an Olympic rider, a captain, whose out of country practices with respect to treatment of his staff would curl your teeth. Unacceptable. Shameful. To your point, Toady, I can never support this rider…ever!

There are clear lines between hard work and exploitation…let’s not lose sight of the distinction…ever…whoever you are!!

[msj]

I’m chuckling as I read all the responses. In the 60’s I took a break from college after 2 yrs for a 3 month Horsemasters Course from the Potomac Horse Center. I ended up taking about 5 yrs off and thoroughly loved working with horses at several jobs besides PHC.

One of the last jobs I had in MD I was working for a hunter/jumper barn and I actually made more $ than I did several yrs later after finishing college and working for Eastman Kodak. Admittedly, part of it was taking care of small barns on weekends when the family was away and the $ then was very good. I also was in a rather well-heeled community of Potomac, MD. and would get $50/day and sometimes even more for feeding, cleaning 2 stalls and turning out the horses and bringing them in.

Actual salary was about the same but with the horse job, I had an apartment and board on my horses (2) included as compensation. At Kodak, I had to pay for an apartment out of my salary as well as boarding the horse I had at the time. Admittedly I also had health insurance with Kodak that I didn’t have working with horses, but I was also pretty healthy.

So, it’s NOT always true that some jobs with horses don’t pay well.

As for lazy workers, yes, I saw them back in the 60’s when I worked with horses but they didn’t last. I also saw barn owners/managers trying to take advantage of willing, hard-working staff as well.

Things don’t change much.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=Halt Near X;8603596]

It’s not like most barn owners are sitting on huge profit margins and refusing to pay the working students because it’s always been done that way. Other industries have gone through similar shifts away from free internships/apprenticeships… but they had the margins to do so. The equestrian industry? I’m not sure the economics are there in the vast majority of barns.[/QUOTE]

I always love the, “But if we fairly compensate the people who do all the work, how on earth will we afford our luxury pets that no one forced us to buy?” argument.

You know, if we just relegalized slavery a lot of stuff would be a lot more affordable and perhaps you could even afford to purchase Tara and bring it back to the glory days.

[Gestalt]

I worked for about a year as a groom to a snt, got minimum wage and was expected to work ot for nothing. Trainer always said her operation wasn’t big enough to pay more. Meanwhile I saw the trainer take her family on multiple, long ski weekends. Go to Hawaii for 10 days, etc. I think the part about not paying me more was so they wouldn’t miss out on lovely vacations. Of which I could never afford of course because my pay was so lousy.

But that job stint showed me that if you weren’t the top dog you most likely wouldn’t be paid a decent salary. So it kept me motivated to find a better way to make money for my horse habit.

[bamboopole]

No wonder nobody ever leaves our barn. We pay well, have good health insurance, help with a 401k, and treat our employees very well. Once a month we have staff meetings (more as needed), so people can share their ideas. No we’re not equal (I am “the boss”), but we treat everyone like a valuable member of the team. Our customers treat their grooms well, or out goes the customer. Works in reverse too - if you aren’t good to the horses and humans, we suggest a new path for our employees.

[mvp]

@toady123;8603881

Then they should not be in business. It’s exploitive and ILLEGAL not to pay (or compensate in some way) people for the hours they put in.

I won’t ride at a barn that does this. Period. I won’t support this kind of practice.

Good for you, OP.

I feel the same way and I say so and people look at me strangely. But really, you get what you pay for when it comes to horse care. And, equally important in my world, it’s offensive that people well-off enough to own horses would short-change the people who work for them. C’mon.

[OTTB2]

What I find funny is how there is 2 sides. One side where people are saying there sick and tired of teenaged grooms working students ect, always complain and don’t work hard enough. And the opposition is how trainers take advantage of young kids to get free labor and the promise of a shiny career in the equestrian world. To side A, well you get what you pay for don’t expect a every teenager to have the biggest work ethic. Yes there are working students that work their asses off and they get the rewards but for everyone one of those there and some bad eggs. To side B its not like these kids are forced into working they want to do the work. Hey it teaches them how hard life really is in the end. Even if they end up not working with horses for a job and thats the majority.

[mvp]

You must admit that this chick is Building Her Brand… she’s famous on YouTube and the blogosphere.

Look how well it worked when Kim Kardashian monetized her brand of heinosity. No one has done that yet for the Horsey Set. Being part of the Horsey Set is coincidental to the Brand Building/Monetizing Yourself As You Are model. I think this chick can smell the money.

And she’s getting paid while we’re talking on the interwebz about how heinous she is. See? It’s the Kardashian model working again.

[Halt_Near_X]

@toady123;8603349

Then they should not be in business. It’s exploitive and ILLEGAL not to pay (or compensate in some way) people for the hours they put in.

Well, yeah, if you factor in board/lessons/whatever, they are being compensated. And if you put a dollar mount on the intangible “knowledge gained” factor, they are being compensated. That’s the argument that has held up the internship/apprenticeship model for centuries, and it’s the argument that is still letting it survive in the equestrian world.

Do I think that if the intangible “knowledge gained” factor was taken out they would be getting a fair wage for their work? In many cases, probably not. Which I thought was the whole point of questioning the current model, but you seem to think all the working students are getting a fair deal, so maybe the model is ok.

And to respond to meupatdoes comment… of course none of it is sustainable. I’m not advocating the situation. I’m just saying it exists. And it is a problem, because as more and more of the middle class and lower decides that as much as they love horses they are one VERY expensive luxury and they walk away–first from rated shows, then from schooling shows, then from ownership at all, then from leasing/lessons… what happens to the industry then?

Things don’t happen in a vacuum.

But I guess it’s much simpler to just rant about a return to slavery rather than thinking through context and possible repercussions.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=handwalk;8604218]
No wonder nobody ever leaves our barn. We pay well, have good health insurance, help with a 401k, and treat our employees very well. Once a month we have staff meetings (more as needed), so people can share their ideas. No we’re not equal (I am “the boss”), but we treat everyone like a valuable member of the team. Our customers treat their grooms well, or out goes the customer. Works in reverse too - if you aren’t good to the horses and humans, we suggest a new path for our employees.[/QUOTE]

Good for you! I enjoyed most of my time as a working student (my body may disagree) and might have stayed in the business but hardly knew anyone offering health insurance much less a 401k.

[Fig]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;8604136]

You know, if we just relegalized slavery a lot of stuff would be a lot more affordable and perhaps you could even afford to purchase Tara and bring it back to the glory days.[/QUOTE]

Coming from someone born and raised in Atlanta, this has to be the funniest/darkest thing I have ever read. :lol:

[CFFarm]

I didn’t read past the first page of answers.

I have to laugh. She had to work for it because she had to tack up , groom and put her own horse away after riding? Try saving for a year at age 12. Finding a horse you could afford, paying your own feed bill, building you own stall in the shed, bumming trailer rides to shows. Ride bareback while you saved for a saddle, etc. etc…

I too, spent many years as a professional groom. Not with international, high class barns but hard working racing stables and private saddlebred barns. Worked for peanuts, no benefits, 7 days a week but got a great education and knew what I was getting into. If you are born with the horse gene, you do what you can to be around them. You have no choice, you must.

If I was 20 again and working as a groom, I’d want benefits and a living wage too. I think the situation has changed. If you can afford to have grooms, you need to be able to pay them like any other employee or trade riding and training in lieu of that. Grooms are people too.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=mvp;8604812]
You must admit that this chick is Building Her Brand… she’s famous on YouTube and the blogosphere.

Look how well it worked when Kim Kardashian monetized her brand of heinosity. No one has done that yet for the Horsey Set. Being part of the Horsey Set is coincidental to the Brand Building/Monetizing Yourself As You Are model. I think this chick can smell the money.

And she’s getting paid while we’re talking on the interwebz about how heinous she is. See? It’s the Kardashian model working again.[/QUOTE]

good. Maybe she’ll get into acting and leave the horses to someone competent with a decent work ethic.

[AffirmedHope]

Yes, she “earned” the right to be a hunter princess because mommy and daddy ponied up for the PRIVILEGE for her to be a barn brat and to ride every day and show a lot. She showed up and rode, hardly back breaking work. (Oh wait the poor thing had to tack up her own pony, THE HORROR).

The only thing she earned with that article and her TV show is perpetuating the stereotype that only spoiled snotty white girls ride horses.

[toady123]

[QUOTE=Halt Near X;8604894]
Well, yeah, if you factor in board/lessons/whatever, they are being compensated. And if you put a dollar mount on the intangible “knowledge gained” factor, they are being compensated. That’s the argument that has held up the internship/apprenticeship model for centuries, and it’s the argument that is still letting it survive in the equestrian world.[/QUOTE]

If they can get something tangible (e.g. board, lessons etc) then that is fine. “Knowledge” is not an adequate form of compensation. It’s a great excuse, but in practicality it’s BS, and illegal in most instances.

There are very few instances that an unpaid internship is legal. This can differ depending on where you are, but generally speaking an unpaid internship is permitted in instances where student is earning credit at a college/university, the organization derives no direct benefit, organization is not paying others to do the same work, etc. No barn that I am aware of would meet this definition.

Even in the ‘real world’ most reputable companies pay interns (because they understand basic labour law). I work for a university and we have to place undergrad interns every year. Its’s a graduation requirement that they must complete. Every single one of the them is paid. We get literally hundreds of postings from companies across North America, large and small. So, this isn’t ‘how things work’. It’s how a few mediocre firms choose to work.

Around here apprenticeships are paid too. Folks alternate between work and school, and when on the job they are getting paid.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=toady123;8606668]

Even in the ‘real world’ most reputable companies pay interns (because they understand basic labour law). I work for a university and we have to place undergrad interns every year. Its’s a graduation requirement that they must complete. Every single one of the them is paid. We get literally hundreds of postings from companies across North America, large and small. So, this isn’t ‘how things work’. It’s how a few mediocre firms choose to work.

Around here apprenticeships are paid too. Folks alternate between work and school, and when on the job they are getting paid.[/QUOTE]

FWIW, this insistence that all interns are paid is a relatively recent development. IIRC, it was not the case a few years ago. College students were working for big firms and earning merely college credit.

[toady123]

[QUOTE=mvp;8606749]
FWIW, this insistence that all interns are paid is a relatively recent development. IIRC, it was not the case a few years ago. College students were working for big firms and earning merely college credit.[/QUOTE]

I think it depends on the industry. Some (e.g. journalism, sports) are more notorious than others (although with that said we have several going to a major news corp this year on a paid basis). The ‘for credit’ option is an easy way out for a lot of organizations. But, many have always compensated. The laws on this have been in place for a long time, and most adhere to them.

It definitely does happen (e.g. unpaid opportunities) and there are instances where it is appropriate if they adhere to the regulations put forth. However in the case of our students, the fact that they work alongside individuals being paid to do the similar work job, and the fact that that they bring value to the organization means they should be paid.

[cleozowner]

In my field (veterinary medicine), hospitals get around that buy paying interns salaries (minimal amounts) and working them 80 hours a week. Comes out to WAY less than minimum wage, but the hospitals don’t care–they are getting incredibly cheap slave labor.
One of the several reasons I didn’t do an internship after vet school: I won’t allow myself to be abused in this way.

[Brynn]

She just sounds entitled. I don’t completely disagree that the younger generation seems to want more money/privileged and less work. Just my humble opinion.