Mini Rolexes??

Some years ago, Jack LeGoff (I believe) said he could build a pre-pre course (“mini-Rolex”) that no one could get around.

This became an interesting and useful discussion of what is and what is not allowed on lower level courses.

The problem Maplebrook and Miriam had with Trakehners mentioned in a couple of other threads points out to me a problem with taking the attitude that certain questions are too hard for the lower levels.

I believe (and strongly) that all questions need to be asked at the lower levels - that is LOWER fences and adjusted distances accordingly - before they are asked at the higher levels.

What I see here in Ireland is lots of smaller ditches, coffins, trakehners, bounces, water jumps, etc - that are included in lower level courses where horse won’t get into trouble (and lose confidence) if they make a mistake at them. This, to me, seems logical and right. Yes, you want the lower level courses straightforward, but don’t you also want them to be learning experiences? Why not a 2’bounce (make it off a turn, so the horse & rider CAN’T do it too fast.) or a SMALL double bank (there was one in a Baby novice course that I knew in PA that was lovely - but then it wasn’t allowed!) Can’t these also be done as options?

The big problem I see in the States is that people don’t have the land and the courses over which to practice - thus much of their learning is done in the Events or at clinics hosted by the Event location.

Thus the smaller, more inviting, versions of difficult questions, I would think, would be very nice to have and good for horses and riders.

I think if my first ever Trakhener were a tough Training level one - 3’3" over a maxed deep and wide ditch - I too would have a heart attack.

As it was last weekend, the third fence was a big ditch - but there was no where else to go - so it rode easily! The first Trakehner was about 2’3"-2’6" over a small ditch. Easy! Further into the course, the Coffin was very inviting - small, and the log rails at the bottom over the ditch were slanted so you didn’t notice the ditch (unless you looked down ), then a bit later a maxed log in the trees (big and very inviting!) two strides to your choice of ditches - the big black gaping one happened to be right on the direct two strides from the log - so - it too flowed smoothly.

A few fences later (after the water - which was ugly and hard - deep & muddy but we went around it because of that) another easy bank with a big drop off (again you could do the easier drop off, but the big one was in the rhythm)… Then another small trakhner - with a small ditch. Then anther water - this one was small log, stride, bank (big drop) into very shallow water, canter out and over another log. Then, the last trakhener, which was maxed (1.0 m/3’3"). By that time riding it, however, it looked minimum (I remember thinking when I walked the course, YIKES, I’m NOT jumping this!). It was easy… the last two fences were a maxed stone wall with a tiny ditch in front and decent drop, and an easy Irish bank…

The point here is, the course included some very difficult questions but graduated them and kept them all in a rhythm so the horses got very confident by the end. (This was a “Hunter Trial” or Hunter Pace as we call it, not an event.)

The whole experience made an actual event the next day (different location) look absolutely cinchy!

How do you feel about difficult questions made easy for the lower levels - rather than not being included at all? Is this still being discussed in the USEA?

I know, there are a LOT of XC fences/questions I would rather try at a smaller height/degreee of difficulty than at the max’ed level.

Found the view, but too expensive

we have Robby. I found this from the rides I’ve had on green horses cross country. They all showed me slower was better when it came to the natural obstacles (ditch, water, banks). One of them insisted on trotting over the X in front of the water. I would ask for the canter and he honestly could not process it, but at the trot no problem. If I were to canter this green horse to the first log in front of the coffin, he most certainly would have been confused, but once they’ve jumped the ditch, the log out is a relief and usually something they are so happy to show and tell us that they can do.

I don’t want to promote trotting cross country fences (height) so that is why it seems the height jumps should go after the ditch, bank, water.

What are others experience with green horses and combinations.

Pat

I really think Pat and Robby are saying essentially the same things… each just have a little different approach.

Back to the original idea—I really like the idea of having a “mini-rolex.” I would like to experience some of the various “upper level” fences at a lower height. My first response was “But, but, it would take ME twice as long to get ready to go show at novice!” I admit, I’ve ridden for years but this is the first year I’ve gotten to show and getting out to do a novice horse trial is just burning me up. My trainer wouldn’t let me go out and do a novice horse trial first thing–I’ve had to do combined tests, dressage shows or beginner novice this year. Then I started to wonder if that wasn’t the problem–people just like me, dying to get out and do it, but don’t have someone at home to kick them in the butt when they try to rush the level. I’ve never realized until this year what a valuable asset a trainer is–especially when it comes to needing a good kick in the butt. From my experience this year, she has given feedback about dressage test and what level is appropriate for me to compete at. We’ve even discussed next season, what I’d like to do, and what it takes to do it correctly and safely.

Master Tally mentioned watching a couple beginner types school cross country. My question is: where in the world is thier trainer? Maybe this is the real problem with lower levels–it’s the lack of good consistent help that is causing people to ride too fast or to slow? I hate to think if it weren’t for my instructor, I might have been one of those riders. Scary thought, but it’s true. When you are ignorant, it’s awfully easy to make mistakes. And when you don’t know what is causing the problems, it’s twice as hard to correct it.

Just a thought.

Jumping Branch in the spring had a big log bounce at Prelim, as did Tryon. Tryon had a very long option involving 2 180 degree turns and a two stride log combination.

JenniferS

What should folks like Bgoosewood and myself do? I started out over a year ago at a Recognized event, USEA, at BN and my horse and I had no problems, except our Dressage was lacking, Now this fall we have Cross Country Attention issues, Still at Beginner Novice. I still am hesitant to move to Novice, thought we have schooled some good solid Novice fences and was fine, This is all new to my horse, who only has been jumping for a little over four years, Never jumped before I got him. He is 14. I have ridden hunters for a good 30 years, and I would not classify myself as a beginner, Although I have no designs on anything above training, and probably not with this horse. I feel when problems like mine and bgoosewoods arise it makes sense to stay at a level where you can deal with the non jumping issues, Am I wrong? Would love to hear your thoughts.

“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety” Benjamin Franklin, 1755
Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique!

in terms of the riders. It always seems there are 3 or four in a 50 horse division that think it’s like a running race and they blast around. If it could be presented as more of a handy hunter sort of course, I would think that could help some riders understand it is not about jumping at speed.

I believe if we had some truly skinny (4 foot or less) jumps starting at beginner novice, the riders would HAVE to slow down. One is rarely successful racing at a skinny and the most harm to be done is a runout. The 20 foot wide jumps really call to people to turn on the speed as well as all sloping faces (Please not key word on sloping faces ALL–I’m not interested in getting rid of all sloping faces, just adding in a couple of plain old verticals).

Not all people have trainers and that is the reality of the sport.

Pat

JAGold, I think we do need to have the turning questions and the related distance questions to prove the homework was done. It forces a flat out running rider (and they are out there) to slow down and if built correctly - it will still encourage forward riding.

subk, I agree with you that the height does not matter to the horse, but as you stated it certainly does to the rider and that is why small questions are needed and if they are introduced at the lower levels, the riders will ride them with WAY more confidence when they find them in one strides, off angles or in bounces, thus helping the horse instead of just being a passenger.

What about a fenceline with 3 fences in it about 100 yards apart. They are numbered 7, 8, 9, and with plenty of room on both sides of the fence for however large/small of a turn you want to take into it. Maybe the first fence is a ditch, the second a hanging log and the third is an inviting trakehner. This set of fences could help in a couple of ways. If you have a horse you want to allow to move on as you are moving up a level, just make wider sweeping turns and your seconds could tick away. If you have a horse you want to move up a level, but you want to practice angling, use the log and the trakehner as schools for that. If you have a less experienced horse/rider that has never seen a trakehner, they get an instant progression. By using the ditch first, they may have some problems there, but the next jump is a simple log and by gosh you have a chance to have a great ride over that so you can carry it on to the trakehner.

Along with more related distance questions, more turning questions and a couple of verticals (height here does make a difference again for a rider), I believe those of us out here who are not trainers, and still need the lower levels, would have a whooping fun time and I think the courses could be on smaller acreages as well. Equaling more events in Minnesota (land of 10,000 lakes and one recognized event).

Weatherford, does Ireland still have real vertical faces on some of their cross country jumps?

Pat Ness

[This message was edited by pat on the back on Oct. 26, 2002 at 08:24 AM.]

[This message was edited by pat on the back on Oct. 26, 2002 at 08:27 AM.]

Triggerfoot - do you have any Hunter Pace events out there? There are some good ones in PA & NJ that use Event courses - there you COULD do the speed.

The “Hunter Trials” here in Ireland ARE like American pace events, just at speed - and provide a great way to practice.

Would your local CTA (whoops, EA, now!) be interested in sponsoring a “Hunter Pace” type of Cross Country event as a school and fund raiser? No Dressage (judges, scribes, etc), no fence judges (a few “spotters” - although here in Ireland, they DO have fence judges), no sj - JUST timers -

that way people could practice their 400/450mpm, in a controlled setting over the size fences they choose, but not in a “competition”.

Would that help?

19 year member of the New Hope clique!

“The same is true of a pony club “D” team going to its first event - the kids are prepared.”–Weatherford

Well, I wouldn’t say that I was “prepared” for D-rally as thoroughly as Janet has suggested (no dressage shows or many xc lessons). Still, I had a great time, learned a heck of a lot more, gained independence and experience. Having a wonderful horse who saved my butt didn’t hurt, either I can proudly say I was the only one on my team who didn’t fall off or was eliminated.

~AJ~
“Got no excuses for the things that we’ve done; we were brave, we were crazy, we were mostly young.” K.C.

That is exactly right! BN was useful for me starting out (on an older Novice horse, not a greenie) only because it allowed me to focus on riding right, and not be at all worried about the fences…but once I moved up to Novice, I found it actually easier to ride the course as a whole, bc we could at least get a flow going…but I know a number of people who have become enamoured of eventing who honestly can’t jump a novice fence yet.
The current system of having GAG, BBN, and BN at unrecognized events allows them to trot around and (usually) make it over everything, but it does not really make them better able to ride Novice. The other alternative is to raise the bar and insist on Novice as the lowest level, which may encourage these folks to get better fundamentals (or may just result in scary rides).

I am jump judging at Menfelt’s starter trial on Nov 2, and will be interested to see how a whole field of riders look out on course.

And, master_tally, yes, this does sound familiar…

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> He tries to pull me at every large fence on the course when we are just out galloping. I have not yet jumped him, but I would have little fear of skipping the BN/N/T fences and just jumping him around most of the prelim course. He just gives me the feeling that the bigger and more solid, the better, and I shouldn’t waste his time with anything small. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That’s it to a “T” – when we school, the hardest thing is to prevent him from charging off over everything he sees, and everything everyone else is jumping. Halfway through the (straight, small bank out) Novice water at Marlborough, he caught sight of the P/T banks out, hung a sharp left (at full gallop), and headed for the fun stuff. Luckily I did manage to regain command of the ship and continue out the proper side, but geez!
This is why I am so interested in this topic – this horse could clearly charge around Prelim strictly in terms of size and speed, and I could probably stick with him, but I do not think we are ready to do ANY of the more technical questions. He’d certainly bound bravely at them, but I don’t know how to help him. I would love to find courses at Training that allow us to work on our communication skills – at that height, I suspect he could muscle us out of most problems. But, since I am inexperienced, the jump to Prelim will need both our brains and his bravery. I hope we will find what we need out schooling…
Anyway, he made it clear that we needn’t bother with Novice any more. You could practically feel him thinking “this thing? This is the smallest pile of logs in the field! You’ve gotta be joking…”

Where’d you find that, in print? Do you have a book or something?

I still think it’s subjective but, clearly, I’m an exception to the thought process behind it.

Maybe I should go out and jump a ditch/log and a log/ditch and then report back!

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

It is harder when there aren’t any events close by to go to without competing. We are spoiled here, because I could find at least one event (recognized or unrecognized)within an hour and a half, just about every weekend from Aplil to early July, and late August to November.

The more “homework” you can do ahead of time, the easier it would be, but I don’t think there was anything WRONG with your choice, just that not everybody needs to do it that way.

No prior experience needed for jump judging. As long as you can tell the difference between a jump, and a refusal or runout. I have had people from work, who like horses but have never ridden, be jump judges, so you are more than qualified.

I have NEVER in my short eventing life gone to an unrecognized ht. reason is: my trainer hasn’t, and i go where my trainer goes.

i see this as a potential problem. if there was no such thing as BN, my first event ever would have been N (i probably would have survived it, but that’s only 'cause i have hj experience, so at least i’m used to the show jitters and dealing with hyper horsies in new environments). otherwise, i would have had to go trainerless, which i think we can ALL agree is bad.

time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas.

I think it is VERY IMPORTANT to have “lower than novice” fences to school over, but I don’t see a major problem with starting to compete at Novice.

If you school over the pre Novice fences, move up to schooling over the Novice fences, start schooling Training fences, and do a couple of “mock runs”, where you do, say 10 fences in a row without pulling up, you should be ready to do a Novice course. Of course, if you have no where to school, you have LOTS of problems.

You can certainly ride the Novice dressage tests at dressage schooling shows, and 3’ courses at local jumper shows. The only thing that is mossing is learning “the routine”.

The “advantage” of the Pre-Novice divisions is that you can actually compete sooner, but I don’t think there is much you learn in a BN course that you couldn’t learn just schooling.

That being said, I usually start out taking a horse to one pre-novice copetition before tackling novice, but I wouldn’ lose much sleep if other committments made it implausible.

It isn’t THAT long ago that the lowest level of competition was Prelim (as in Ireland). The horses and riders STILL started over 2’6" fences, moved up to 3’ fences when they had confidence, then schooled 3’3" and 3’6" courses, and finally were ready to compete. The thing is most peopel aren’t patient enougfh to wait that long before getting competitive feedback

As this thread has grown I’m going to have to amend my earlier “%100 agreement.”

I agree that certain types of fences like trekahners, ditches, banks should be more common at lower levels. I think it would weed out some of the, shall we call it “unprepared riders.” It might also help narrow the gap between Training and Prelim so that your not confronted with BOTH new types of fences AND the introduction of true technical questions.

However, I think bounces and other technical questions are completely inappropriate at Training and lower. (bounces now first appear at I not P) As a rider who competes at Intermeadiate (as well as training the horse that far) I have to emphasize to you guys that the difference between P, I and A isn’t the type/construction or even size of a fence it’s the technicallity --or placement in relation to terrain and other fences and how quickly/often these type of questions come up in the course.

Skinnies, corners and combinations with multipe fences with in strides of each other are NOT appropriate for young horses. Personally I don’t think that’s how you develop confident horses.

Also, I beleive the speed penalty question is about go under some rule changes so that you will have some latitude to practice higher speeds.

As for people being unsafe and “bombing around XC” that is not at all what I see that’s going on unsafe at the lower levels. People CAN’T GO FORWARD! I see Novice (and Training and Prelim) horses strangled by the hardware in their mouth with riders acting like they’re being run away with while doing not much more canter than what they do in a dressage ring. I see horses rushing because riders have them so backward that if the horse doesn’t rush he’ll never have enough power to get over the less than 3’ fence in his path.

When horses are being ridden backward they have no opportunity to correct the riders mistakes or find “fifth legs.” Backward horses get in trouble and riders get hurt. I would be willing to bet that if the statisic exisit that those lower level riders who “bomb around” have significanlty safer experiences than the slow backward ones!

I find it very interesting that most people seem to think a two stride combination is going to be safer/easier than a one-stride.

SJ Course Designer, Linda Allen, disagrees - and I am inclined to agree with her. A low level “flyer” who comes into a two stride combination too fast may well just do a one (as happens, unfortunately, in low level sj when time is a factor) and flip. That same horse would rarely bounce a properly set XC one stride - but certainly can do two in it safely.

Granted, this may not be as much of an issue with the two stride combinations set at at least 33’ - but, then, in my youth, a one-stride on the outside course for a horse was set at 28’ (24’ for lg pony, 21’ for small) - so it COULD be a problem…

The wall to wall combination set in two treelines on the course I rode the other day was a nice “long” one - we did a very happy galloping one - I could easily see people doing a short two, too. It was not too hard for most (American) novice eventer, IMHO. (Although, the table that was the next fence was BIG! )

I think we Americans worry too much and that worrying interfers with our riding. You can’t become part of the horse if you are worrying - which IMHO, means you can’t really learn to ride - as riding is about feel and you can’t feel if you are tense. So, we become our own worst enemy.

It was pretty amazing to watch the kids on ponies cruising around the “advanced” course ( fences from Prelim to Intermediate level)!! Sure, there was as section for under 12’s - but they just didn’t have to do the biggest fences on the course and some of the combinations. It was amazing to me what they DID do! And most of those under 12’s were more like under 8 or 10 on TINY ponies!

To the original point, IF we had these sophisticated questions at the lowest levels from tiny banks to shallow ditches, perhaps everyone would be braver later on?!

19 year member of the New Hope clique!

My eventing career has been short (and interrupted by a non-eventing head injury!) but I have join those of you on the BN tangent to say that I truly appreciate the BN division.

I’ve been riding for about 5 years, and I credit eventing with giving me some basics and confidence to ride in the open and over varying terrain, which has in turn improved my general riding skills a great deal. Obviously there was a trainer in there teaching me the necessary skills, so maybe it would be more accurate to say that the desire to event made me learn these things.

However, my horse is just more than pony-sized at 14.3hh and not very scopey. A good rider could get her around a true novice course, but for where I was when I started, there’s no way I could have. Moreover, as an adult beginner, the size of the fence really did have a big impact on the way I rode! BN size fences were more accessible to me mentally, and easier for my little horse to jump.

I would work and work to get ready for a show, and all that preparation improved my riding, I’m sure. But I always felt like every show was about 30 lessons compressed into one day! I can’t emphasize enough how educational it was to actually go to the show and event my horse. And if it weren’t for the pull of the adrenaline rush, I know I wouldn’t have been bold enough to do some of those “scary” things, like canter down a strange wooded path, canter downhill, through water, jump a bench or a little roll-top. All those things were big to me at the time, and the achievement of coming through the finish flags, or (gasp!) picking up a ribbon were priceless to me.

Novice seemed huge and far away to me, and BN made eventing accessible for my particular circumstances. I have since evented Novice, and schooled a lot of bigger stuff on my instructor’s retired Advanced horse, which was the experience of a lifetime for me! But, I’m sure I never would have even started down the path if it hadn’t been for BN, and now I’m a timid adult amateur who happens to be addicted to galloping.

It’s not a division for everyone, but I definitely think it has a place here.

Emily

The best way to predict the future is to create it!

Janet - I think I agree and disagree with you.

Better having problems with those sophisticated questions at BN/N/T than at Prelim - where the fence height does become a factor.

Think we should start another thread on trainers in Eventing??

19 year member of the New Hope clique!

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
I think, triggerfoot, her point is, and certainly is the case in Pony Club, you do your homework at home. And you experience events as a friend, volunteer, etc, before actually competing. And, you go to other kinds of shows before your first event.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that would certainly work… i’m still stuck in remembering my confusion when i started this. it would have been wise for me to do this stuff ahead of time, but for the most part i felt like it was impossible. the closest x-c venue to me is an hour away, the next closest is (i think) 4 hours away. any events held close-by i want to compete in, and its hard to find time (and money, i am a grad student after all) in my rock-n-roll lifestyle to go to an away event and mess around with hotels and whatnot. if i am going far away, i’d rather use the money to compete. if there’s an event at the nearby location, i want to ride in it because trailering is so much cheaper. okay, so that’s why i never spectated at a ht before jumping in, because i’m cheap. i never even KNEW i could jump judge without having competition experience.

whew! my long and rambling point is: i figured it was more economical and efficient to just jump right in.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
(You should join! ) [pony club]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i’d love to, but i am an old fogie. is there an OPRC in indiana???

Question for weatherford (or anyone else i guess): do you think i made an okay choice? given that i’d done jumpers in competition up to 3’9" and know how to handle competition in general, just clueless about eventing (earlier this year i mean, now i am an EXPERT ) that it was okay for me to NOT check things out from the ground first, and just leap right in with the help of a trainer???

time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My question is why is it that many folks, refuse to do a recognized ht at beginner novice? I find no shame in starting my greenie and keeping him at BN until he is ready to move up. But I seem to hear that it is a waste of time and $$ for and experienced rider to do a recognize HT at BN. Has anyone else heard a lot of people say this??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think many experienced trainers and riders simply do not think they need to be doing 2’6" - 2’9" on their greenies.

Here in Ireland, there is no such creature - the lowest level is Training (1.0 m). That was my horse’s first event. OK, he did a Hunter Trials the day before with chicken ole me - and THOSE fences were bigger than the event.

I don’t think people ride better here, but they ride - they got on an go. They have the confidence to give their horses confidence. I have yet to meet anyone who rides in a ring on a regular basis. And those who don’t won XC fences drive their horses somewhere that does.

People do what works for them and their horses.

19 year member of the New Hope clique!