Mini Rolexes??

[Janet]

It is harder when there aren’t any events close by to go to without competing. We are spoiled here, because I could find at least one event (recognized or unrecognized)within an hour and a half, just about every weekend from Aplil to early July, and late August to November.

The more “homework” you can do ahead of time, the easier it would be, but I don’t think there was anything WRONG with your choice, just that not everybody needs to do it that way.

No prior experience needed for jump judging. As long as you can tell the difference between a jump, and a refusal or runout. I have had people from work, who like horses but have never ridden, be jump judges, so you are more than qualified.

[triggerfoot]

I have NEVER in my short eventing life gone to an unrecognized ht. reason is: my trainer hasn’t, and i go where my trainer goes.

i see this as a potential problem. if there was no such thing as BN, my first event ever would have been N (i probably would have survived it, but that’s only 'cause i have hj experience, so at least i’m used to the show jitters and dealing with hyper horsies in new environments). otherwise, i would have had to go trainerless, which i think we can ALL agree is bad.

time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas.

[Janet]

I think it is VERY IMPORTANT to have “lower than novice” fences to school over, but I don’t see a major problem with starting to compete at Novice.

If you school over the pre Novice fences, move up to schooling over the Novice fences, start schooling Training fences, and do a couple of “mock runs”, where you do, say 10 fences in a row without pulling up, you should be ready to do a Novice course. Of course, if you have no where to school, you have LOTS of problems.

You can certainly ride the Novice dressage tests at dressage schooling shows, and 3’ courses at local jumper shows. The only thing that is mossing is learning “the routine”.

The “advantage” of the Pre-Novice divisions is that you can actually compete sooner, but I don’t think there is much you learn in a BN course that you couldn’t learn just schooling.

That being said, I usually start out taking a horse to one pre-novice copetition before tackling novice, but I wouldn’ lose much sleep if other committments made it implausible.

It isn’t THAT long ago that the lowest level of competition was Prelim (as in Ireland). The horses and riders STILL started over 2’6" fences, moved up to 3’ fences when they had confidence, then schooled 3’3" and 3’6" courses, and finally were ready to compete. The thing is most peopel aren’t patient enougfh to wait that long before getting competitive feedback

[subk]

As this thread has grown I’m going to have to amend my earlier “%100 agreement.”

I agree that certain types of fences like trekahners, ditches, banks should be more common at lower levels. I think it would weed out some of the, shall we call it “unprepared riders.” It might also help narrow the gap between Training and Prelim so that your not confronted with BOTH new types of fences AND the introduction of true technical questions.

However, I think bounces and other technical questions are completely inappropriate at Training and lower. (bounces now first appear at I not P) As a rider who competes at Intermeadiate (as well as training the horse that far) I have to emphasize to you guys that the difference between P, I and A isn’t the type/construction or even size of a fence it’s the technicallity --or placement in relation to terrain and other fences and how quickly/often these type of questions come up in the course.

Skinnies, corners and combinations with multipe fences with in strides of each other are NOT appropriate for young horses. Personally I don’t think that’s how you develop confident horses.

Also, I beleive the speed penalty question is about go under some rule changes so that you will have some latitude to practice higher speeds.

As for people being unsafe and “bombing around XC” that is not at all what I see that’s going on unsafe at the lower levels. People CAN’T GO FORWARD! I see Novice (and Training and Prelim) horses strangled by the hardware in their mouth with riders acting like they’re being run away with while doing not much more canter than what they do in a dressage ring. I see horses rushing because riders have them so backward that if the horse doesn’t rush he’ll never have enough power to get over the less than 3’ fence in his path.

When horses are being ridden backward they have no opportunity to correct the riders mistakes or find “fifth legs.” Backward horses get in trouble and riders get hurt. I would be willing to bet that if the statisic exisit that those lower level riders who “bomb around” have significanlty safer experiences than the slow backward ones!

[Weatherford]

I find it very interesting that most people seem to think a two stride combination is going to be safer/easier than a one-stride.

SJ Course Designer, Linda Allen, disagrees - and I am inclined to agree with her. A low level “flyer” who comes into a two stride combination too fast may well just do a one (as happens, unfortunately, in low level sj when time is a factor) and flip. That same horse would rarely bounce a properly set XC one stride - but certainly can do two in it safely.

Granted, this may not be as much of an issue with the two stride combinations set at at least 33’ - but, then, in my youth, a one-stride on the outside course for a horse was set at 28’ (24’ for lg pony, 21’ for small) - so it COULD be a problem…

The wall to wall combination set in two treelines on the course I rode the other day was a nice “long” one - we did a very happy galloping one - I could easily see people doing a short two, too. It was not too hard for most (American) novice eventer, IMHO. (Although, the table that was the next fence was BIG! )

I think we Americans worry too much and that worrying interfers with our riding. You can’t become part of the horse if you are worrying - which IMHO, means you can’t really learn to ride - as riding is about feel and you can’t feel if you are tense. So, we become our own worst enemy.

It was pretty amazing to watch the kids on ponies cruising around the “advanced” course ( fences from Prelim to Intermediate level)!! Sure, there was as section for under 12’s - but they just didn’t have to do the biggest fences on the course and some of the combinations. It was amazing to me what they DID do! And most of those under 12’s were more like under 8 or 10 on TINY ponies!

To the original point, IF we had these sophisticated questions at the lowest levels from tiny banks to shallow ditches, perhaps everyone would be braver later on?!

19 year member of the New Hope clique!

[DizzyMagic]

My eventing career has been short (and interrupted by a non-eventing head injury!) but I have join those of you on the BN tangent to say that I truly appreciate the BN division.

I’ve been riding for about 5 years, and I credit eventing with giving me some basics and confidence to ride in the open and over varying terrain, which has in turn improved my general riding skills a great deal. Obviously there was a trainer in there teaching me the necessary skills, so maybe it would be more accurate to say that the desire to event made me learn these things.

However, my horse is just more than pony-sized at 14.3hh and not very scopey. A good rider could get her around a true novice course, but for where I was when I started, there’s no way I could have. Moreover, as an adult beginner, the size of the fence really did have a big impact on the way I rode! BN size fences were more accessible to me mentally, and easier for my little horse to jump.

I would work and work to get ready for a show, and all that preparation improved my riding, I’m sure. But I always felt like every show was about 30 lessons compressed into one day! I can’t emphasize enough how educational it was to actually go to the show and event my horse. And if it weren’t for the pull of the adrenaline rush, I know I wouldn’t have been bold enough to do some of those “scary” things, like canter down a strange wooded path, canter downhill, through water, jump a bench or a little roll-top. All those things were big to me at the time, and the achievement of coming through the finish flags, or (gasp!) picking up a ribbon were priceless to me.

Novice seemed huge and far away to me, and BN made eventing accessible for my particular circumstances. I have since evented Novice, and schooled a lot of bigger stuff on my instructor’s retired Advanced horse, which was the experience of a lifetime for me! But, I’m sure I never would have even started down the path if it hadn’t been for BN, and now I’m a timid adult amateur who happens to be addicted to galloping.

It’s not a division for everyone, but I definitely think it has a place here.

Emily

The best way to predict the future is to create it!

[Weatherford]

Janet - I think I agree and disagree with you.

Better having problems with those sophisticated questions at BN/N/T than at Prelim - where the fence height does become a factor.

Think we should start another thread on trainers in Eventing??

19 year member of the New Hope clique!

[triggerfoot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
I think, triggerfoot, her point is, and certainly is the case in Pony Club, you do your homework at home. And you experience events as a friend, volunteer, etc, before actually competing. And, you go to other kinds of shows before your first event.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that would certainly work… i’m still stuck in remembering my confusion when i started this. it would have been wise for me to do this stuff ahead of time, but for the most part i felt like it was impossible. the closest x-c venue to me is an hour away, the next closest is (i think) 4 hours away. any events held close-by i want to compete in, and its hard to find time (and money, i am a grad student after all) in my rock-n-roll lifestyle to go to an away event and mess around with hotels and whatnot. if i am going far away, i’d rather use the money to compete. if there’s an event at the nearby location, i want to ride in it because trailering is so much cheaper. okay, so that’s why i never spectated at a ht before jumping in, because i’m cheap. i never even KNEW i could jump judge without having competition experience.

whew! my long and rambling point is: i figured it was more economical and efficient to just jump right in.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
(You should join! ) [pony club]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i’d love to, but i am an old fogie. is there an OPRC in indiana???

Question for weatherford (or anyone else i guess): do you think i made an okay choice? given that i’d done jumpers in competition up to 3’9" and know how to handle competition in general, just clueless about eventing (earlier this year i mean, now i am an EXPERT ) that it was okay for me to NOT check things out from the ground first, and just leap right in with the help of a trainer???

time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas.

[Weatherford]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My question is why is it that many folks, refuse to do a recognized ht at beginner novice? I find no shame in starting my greenie and keeping him at BN until he is ready to move up. But I seem to hear that it is a waste of time and $$ for and experienced rider to do a recognize HT at BN. Has anyone else heard a lot of people say this??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think many experienced trainers and riders simply do not think they need to be doing 2’6" - 2’9" on their greenies.

Here in Ireland, there is no such creature - the lowest level is Training (1.0 m). That was my horse’s first event. OK, he did a Hunter Trials the day before with chicken ole me - and THOSE fences were bigger than the event.

I don’t think people ride better here, but they ride - they got on an go. They have the confidence to give their horses confidence. I have yet to meet anyone who rides in a ring on a regular basis. And those who don’t won XC fences drive their horses somewhere that does.

People do what works for them and their horses.

19 year member of the New Hope clique!

[Pat_Ness]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by asterix:
Of course, later, he said “yeah, that was more like a Prelim question at Training height…”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is the one of the problems… They put a question on course and max the height for the level. I totally agree that the horses don’t care about the heights, but I still mentally care about the heights. So why not have this combination at a 3’ height to encourage the riders confidence and have more combinations on the course?

That’s the direction I would like to see it go. Not get rid of the max fences, but add 3 or 4 interesting combinations at a slightly lower height.
Pat

[ksbadger]

One recurring theme is lack of space for an eventing course. The Montreal Hunt has hosted the Canadian Hunt Challenge several times at their kennels near Mirabel. The course they use fits on four acres or less but has proved more than challenging over the years (banks, drops, walls, water etc etc). It may not give the full galloping experience but something like that might be one answer to getting experience other than a full event.

Brock

Brock n. (Anglo-Saxon) badger as in Brockenhurst, Brocklebank etc

[Pat_Ness]

I have ridden cross country (only about 7, which is so few, but enough to get a pretty good idea) will compress on their own when they see the question as they usually begin to back off. That is when you add leg and you receive a wonderful compressed horse that is going forward. That is how I like the green horses I ride to go as you then ride between your leg and the fence. That is something I have been taught in numerous clinics.

Robby, you also mentioned earlier about if its frustrating to the horse, you probably shouldn’t be schooling it. I disagree. If it’s frustrating to the horse, you are doing it the wrong way and need to break down the question either by slowing down the pace, making the question lower or spreading the combination out further. I would say slowing down the pace will help the situation over 90% of the time.
Also, this quote from one of your posts has me curious: Telling a green rider on a green horse to “just stay out of his way and let him figure it out” is toxic

Are you thinking your last clinic was not very helpful? The problem I see here is the green rider part and if clinicians had their choice, they would not be putting green riders on green horses. I have to agree with your clinician and the theory to let the horse figure out the questions especially when the fences are stadium jumps. The horses know when they are the ones that made the decision for the ride and they also know when it was the rider interfering. Maybe you were not referring to your previous post about that clinic though so I’m sorry if I misunderstood.

Also, the coop to rockwall where you had a fall, could have worked with a good half halt in between the obstacles. Compressing each stride all the way down to the next cross country obstacle, just does not sound like a good plan. It sounds like a great plan for stadium though. Just had to point out a few things I found way different then anything I heard of before for cross county riding.

As far as too speedy verses backwards riding on cross country. It is definitely the speed demons that are what I see. Both are equally as terrifying.
Pat

[This message was edited by pat on the back on Oct. 23, 2002 at 10:59 PM.]

[This message was edited by pat on the back on Oct. 23, 2002 at 11:02 PM.]

[subk]

Perhaps the year I spent at Intermediate (2001) there were changes but the only bounce I ever jumped or saw in 2 years at Prelim in area III and area VIII was going up two banks in a CCI*. River Glen Prelim this fall had a bounce that also involved going up a bank. Bounces in both these situations are excelent intros to bounces but are not nearly as technical as what is seen at Intermediate with two upright fences. Both those questions demanded a very forward ride that didn’t involve a great shift in balance or pace. I almost don’t catorgorize them in the same group. Riding a technical bounce was definatley one of the major changes between P and I in my expereince.

The name of the game through out eventing and especially on XC is riding forward, yet backward riding seems to be the ride of choice for far too many eventers. If we start putting complexes on lower level courses we’re going to exacerbate the problem. If we put single fences of similar design (ie. trakahners and the like) but smaller than the upper level fence design but with out the technicality we might just encourage some riders to move forward.

So a big yes to fence variety at the lower levels and an big No to complexes. If your ready for complexes move up. It sounds strange but the difference between N and I isn’t really the hieght of the fences!

[KatieRiley]

TLE, you are right… I wrote a long post and in an attempt of making it more concise, I deleted a comment that mentioned having qualified help. Paying someone oodles of money for bad information is terrible–especially bad when you get the attitude you are right and everyone else is wrong. Crowell told me “No help is better than bad help” when I went home after a working student stint last year and was complaining about not having good help at home. Thankfully, I found someone!

Glad to make you laugh anyway.

[Pixie_Dust]

Yup Sannois! He was GREAT at a BN HT in July & September (we actually galloped ) and then he became completely unfocused at a “starter” N HT in October (XC only) and we were eliminated (and I fell off!)

After thinking about it further, I can see how some people wouldn’t bother with BN, but for me, working out of my backyard, BN & E are so helpful. Hektor’s first time on a stadium course was at a HT. Since the jumps were only 18 inches he went over all of them, and it was PURELY a schooling experience. When I boarded at an eventing barn, I could school jumps & courses all I wanted, so I did’t have much need for E & BN.

[Janet]

I think it is important to work with a trainer/ instructor in preparing to compete, but I don’t think it is very importatn to have one WITH you at the event- especially if you have already attended a couple of events as somebody’s “helper” or have another competitor who can “mentor” you, and make sure you know the routine.

It CAN be helpful to have someone knowledgeable to walk the course with, but aside from that I don’t think a trainer helps much.

If you (and the horse) haven’t already learned “it” (whatever “it” is), you aren’t going to learn it in warm up

[Robby_Johnson]

I got the humor, master tally!

kileyc, who are you sweetie? I had 28 of you birds to shuffle that weekend, and I’m glad you got the same gist of what he said that I did. For a while there I was scratching my head going, “was I really there?” Oh wait, have we identified that you are, in fact, Miss A.W.? If so, big hug to you!

Your question about the BN is a good one. I am much more comfortable, as little-old-nothingtoprove-AA, keeping my horse at BN until he’s ready to move up. Having, in the last 4 years, taken a horse from Green to Training, I have to remind myself that they’re all different. With her, one BN was plenty, but I’d also evented two other horses at two other events the first year I had her. We stayed at N for 2 seasons, and did 1 T and started another (retired), so I don’t even profess to be a competent T rider. With Rhodey - who hasn’t even schooled solid obstacles yet - it may be that he stays at BN or, God forbid, schooling dressage/hunter shows before he makes his debut!

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

[Robby_Johnson]

I actually had to quit riding with my trainer at events for this exact reason! I couldn’t do it. She made me more nervous and confused!

I don’t train with anyone on a regular basis - just clinics and what-not. I hope to find someone to ride with regularly, though, when Rhodey starts going.

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

[ThirdCharm]

There are several courses around here (NC) that have ‘a,b’ related fences at Novice (2’11", w/t/c dressage test, for any of our friends from across the pond). Tryon has a set of rolltops/tables set at two strides apart, Five Points/Longleaf had two ascending oxers two strides apart, I’m sure I could think of more if I didn’t have to rush to a lesson in a moment. Tryon’s combination isn’t even terribly wide at the face. They weren’t maxed and none of my students found them particulaly onerous. I think that’s a very suitable question at Novice, since Training can have triple combinations on xc.

JenniferS

[JER]

subk, I completely agree about the riding backwards stuff. I see far too many riders with big spurs and strong bits who don’t have a clue about letting the horse go forward and do his job. This is the only way to be safe on XC.

With a green horse, I like to have a small fence/log after a ditch or a drop. This gives the horse something else to think about. The ditch/drop becomes part of the process.

I used to foxhunt regularly and this informs my perspective on XC. I believe there are certain basic skills all horses should have. This would include ditches, banks, drops and water. Even if your horse is never going to jump an obstacle with height, he should do all of these things with very little fuss. I’ve taken a 14 hh Sherman tank cow horse up a bank that was at least 3’9" because it was the only way to go where we needed to go. All four ranch horses in our group did it with ease, and this was not a revetted bank on groomed footing. I’ve jumped scary, deep natural ditches and negotiated some very uninviting water crossings out hunting, none of which would ever make it past a TD at any level. A good XC horse needs to learn where to put his feet, but this is not something he’s going to learn doing single logs spaced far apart on a tilled track.

Unfortunately, it’s not that easy to give your horse these basic skills. We don’t often have access to good riding land (much less so than in UK/Ireland) and water is just not a naturally-occuring obstacle in Southern California. While I’d love to see tougher small fences on courses, I just don’t think that the average amateur would have the opportunity to prepare at home for these sorts of things.

As for speed, I think the ‘speeding ticket’ penalties at the lower levels are a bit harsh. I think most people aren’t learning how to ride forward and at speed, but this is probably not due to a fear of time faults. What does bother me is that 350mpm is just too slow for some horses. My kid’s quality young TB goes around a N course very nicely but consistently finishes over a minute under optimum time. He is not in any way out of control – he’s in a rhythm moving forward to the fences, like he should be at this very early stage of his eventing life. My kid COULD trot in a few places (she trots when she feels she needs to for his sake) to waste time, but we put an emphasis on maintaining rhythm over the course, so we take the time faults. But this weekend, her time faults dropped her from 2nd or 3rd to 6th, which I know disappoints her, even though her goal is to move up the levels, not to win at Novice.