Misrepresentation of horse - how to handle

[doctordarling]

I’ve been on the market for a confidence builder after selling my young ‘too much’ wb/tb mare. I responded to an ad for a gelding the description contained a few key words ; ‘quiet but sensitive’ ‘NOT suitable for jumping’ and has done various activities PC etcetera. dressage training up to 2nd level.

Phoned the seller who said the horse was ‘honest’ but that she wasn’t having viewings because he was going to a re-trainers in two weeks time for two weeks. She did tell me that all her ribs were broken from a ‘silly trip’ at walk off this horse while out hacking. We agreed to stay in touch.

Meanwhile yesterday I mentioned the horse’s name to a local professional who advised ‘don’t touch it’ - and that the owner had approached her to sell horse for her, and my professional contact [who I sold my mare through] had said ‘no, the horse is dangerous.’

Local professional then sends me some recent video of the horse at its last (obviously unsuccessful) purchase viewing (same seller) going around small course of 60cm jumps, going over the last one, tipping it behind and then totally losing it and broncing violently and taking off. The horse had just done something similar with prospective owner, a 12 year old, so the mother got on. Both were injured. Broken arms. The horse was being ridden quietly and tactfully and rider had an independent seat, soft contact, and good balance. So, nothing happened I could see that would so disturb a 10 year old horse training at second level popping a couple of tiny cavaletti height jumps – the horse had actually just passed its vet check and the mum and daughter who’d just bought it were having ‘one last ride’.

Professional wants her name out of it, but is concerned should the horse be tried or bought by anyone but the most experienced. The seller has been abusive to the professional before, so she doesn’t want a repeat.

Forewarned is forearmed but I’m shaken, but also angry. The horse’s behavior is unpredictable; clearly no way am I interested but I would like to do the right by future riders. I’ve drafted the seller a letter’ – explaining I have anonymous information I will not share with her, but that shows evidence she’s misrepresented the horse’s temperament. And that I want her to disclose to all future interested buyers fully openly and honestly the reasons why the horse did not sell at the last attempt. But since I haven’t bought the horse my letter can only be an appeal to more moral behaviour.

What does the COTH brains trust advise? Should I give this dodgy seller both barrels on behalf of my self and for future riders – or do something else? I don’t want to step over any legal lines myself.

[Equkelly]

Hard no. Stay out of it. There are probably way more dishonest sellers than honest ones. You are not going to convince her to be honest. You are just going to cause drama. Walk away, warn your circle so your friends don’t buy the horse but other than that, there is nothing you can do.

[Scribbler]

MYOB and don’t buy the horse.

Don’t get into the middle of a conflict between some random trainer and some random seller.

Honestly all the red flags are right there in what the seller said. Don’t jump this horse, no you can’t come see him, he’s going into boot camp because he sent me to the hospital.

That alone should be enough to make any buyer run for the hills.

Horse trading has always been dodgy, in the 19th century horse trading had the same connotations as used car salesman in the 20th century.

To keep yourself safe, always watch the seller ride before you get on. Be willing to walk away without riding if you don’t like what you see. Take blood at the PPE for a drug test. Ask around your community about what folks know ( as you did). And realise that what is said in an ad might end up being explained a lot more when you see the horse and seller in person.

But don’t get caught up in a game of gossip and back biting between your coach and some other trainer or seller. It’s not your job to go enforce things for the coach. Also you only have their side of the story.

Just stay out of it.

[Scribbler]

Also am I reading the video story right? Your trainer has video that supports the following anecdote:

Mother and 12 year old child go to try out horse. The child is bucked off and breaks an arm. So the mother gets on and is bucked off and breaks an arm too. Someone sends your coach this video

Really?? That is just not how these things play out. I can’t imagine a single mother in this scenario that would be hopping up on a sales horse while the 12 year old child stood there with a broken arm. The mother would be en route to the ER.

If the mother was a trainer the mother would ride first. If the mother was a pony club mum, she wouldn’t get on a horse that had just ejected the kid.

I don’t doubt that this horse has issues, quite likely physical pain. But the story as told by your coach doesn’t smell right to me. I would take all information with a good seven pound block of Redmond salt.

[Casey09]

Something definitely seems very odd about the story that a child and a mother both broke their arms in the same trial ride.
That having been said, I would think that there could be an issue because there are red flags. For me, a huge red flag would be, “You can’t see the horse until the horse goes to the trainer.” That right there sounds like something that I do not want to deal with.
The seller knows that what she’s doing is wrong. She’s simply decided that she wants to unload this horse and she doesn’t care if someone else gets hurt. It’s that simple. Your message won’t change her mind.
That said, horse dealing is a dirty business. The ads are all written to put the ad in the most flattering light possible. Some do a better job of trying to find the right buyer for the horse, but we all know it’s buyer beware.
Just be glad that you didn’t go look at him and get hurt. It is sad that people do this stuff so I can understand your concern. I know I bought a horse that wasn’t like this by any means, but he wasn’t the horse from the ad either. The ad said that he had been ridden by riders of all levels and had been a lesson horse. After owning him for the time I did I knew absolutely that he was not a horse for all levels of riders. His temperament was by no means the 3 it was advertised as, and yes I fell off and fortunately I was lucky. I learned a lot from it and I certainly learned to not trust the ad. I’ve known so many people who have bought a horse that wasn’t the right one and it is so sad. Sometimes it’s just that the buyer takes the horse and has him on a totally different program and the horse changes, but a lot of the time the seller is trying so hard to sell the horse that they’re not really finding the right buyer.

[mvp]

Why are you angry? You did your research and didn’t get taken. You are not the horse trading police. There are no horse trading police (at least for this aspect of the transaction).

Also, you could have read between the lines when the owner mentioned broken ribs, no one coming to ride him until he had gone to a re-trainer and him even going to that kind of pro. I can see why you went to the pro helping you on your side of the transaction to see if they knew more about a local horse. But none of the additional dastardly things you found justify your staying involved in this.

The healthy thing to do is to walk from this deal. After that, you do as your pros did: You share what you know about the horse (and not the hearsay of third parties) on a “need to know” basis. If someone asks you about the horse, you tell the truth. But you don’t broadcast that truth unsolicited.

It feels good to transmute fear into self-righteous anger. That doesn’t mean you are entitled to act on that so that you get to take some kind of action that makes you feel better.

[rothmpp]

I’d add - I would not get in the middle of trying to make the seller honest, it’s not going to happen. You’re still in the market for a horse in the local area, I’m assuming. You don’t want the trainer running around telling everyone that you bad mouth trainers/sellers over “small” things. It could make it very difficult to find a trainer willing to show you a horse. Trainer has already demonstrated that they are willing to sugar coat the truth - don’t get sucked into it.

There are several threads where the creative wording in sale ads are dissected and interpreted. It is entertaining and educational to read through some of those old threads. After years and years of selling and buying for both myself and friends, you really do see the untold story between the lines.

I’ll see if I can track down a couple of the old threads for reference and post them here.

[doctordarling]

Thanks everyone for the advice.

Just to clarify, writing to the owner and asking her to make fuller more honest disclosures was not about me, or making me feel better, my motive was to prevent a future prospective buyer/owner, possible a child, being hurt.

This is a horse that presents very well (at least it did in all the video the owner sent me) and then goes insane, so it would be quite a hard behavior to spot, and it does pass its vet checks. I don’t see myself as a police person, (or not consciously) just someone trying to swim in murky waters.

[Posting_Trot]

The advice you’ve been given is sound: you have no business doing anything but saying no to the horse.

There could be all kinds of different sides to this particular hot mess, and you’ve mostly heard the coach’s side. Just move on in your search and let this horse be.

[hoopoe]

if you do not really care about your reputation in your local community or, indirectly , that of your trainer, go ahead and express yourself.

It will likely not be taken well and you will come out as a gossip, busybody and have the tables flipped on you calling you and potentially your trainer / pro unethical

[skydy]

@doctordarling

Thanks everyone for the advice.

Just to clarify, writing to the owner and asking her to make fuller more honest disclosures was not about me, or making me feel better, my motive was to prevent a future prospective buyer/owner, possible a child, being hurt.

This is a horse that presents very well (at least it did in all the video the owner sent me) and then goes insane, so it would be quite a hard behavior to spot, and it does pass its vet checks. I don’t see myself as a police person, (or not consciously) just someone trying to swim in murky waters.

You cannot write to seller “asking her to make fuller more honest disclosures” without implicating the person (trainer) who warned you about the horse or the people that were (possibly) injured by it.

I understand your frustration , but please don’t write to the seller about it. It won’t solve anything but it could create serious issues. You have good intentions, but you know the old saying…

Just don’t do it. You can warn your friends verbally, in person, but don’t write anything that you’ve heard second hand.If you had seen it happen that would be different, but you weren’t there and you didn’t.

[Equkelly]

@doctordarling

This is a horse that presents very well (at least it did in all the video the owner sent me) and then goes insane, so it would be quite a hard behavior to spot, and it does pass its vet checks.

Horses don’t “just go insane”. That’s not a thing. There are warning signs. If someone is unskilled and doesn’t notice said warning signs, then yes, they will get hurt. But that’s also going to be the case in any situation.

THIS is why we tell people, have the vet pull blood, bring a trainer to look at the horse, have the owner get on first, do multiple trial rides if you can, ask around, etc. You should assume the seller is lying, so don’t take whatever they “say” seriously. Buy the horse you see in front of you, not the horse that the seller is telling you about.

Also, not to defend dishonest sellers but a lot of sellers are just delusional about their own horses too so it’s not always that everyone is just a greedy scumbag. I’ve seen so many people just do mental gymnastics defending their horse’s behavior… “Sure Dobbins MAY have broken 2 peoples arms in 25 minutes last week but it was windy that day!” Or “I did break 4 ribs from getting bucked off… probably a saddle fit issue, I’ll just change it and then problem solved!” Or “He used to bolt/buck/rear but that was a whole 3 weeks ago BEFORE I sent him to a craigslist trainer. Now the problem is surely solved!” People do that all the time because it’s easier to lie to yourself then face the reality that you are stuck with an unsellable horse.

[joiedevie99]

Nope. Not your circus, not your monkeys. Walk away.

[EmilyM]

Definitely don’t write this letter but if anyone ever asks about this seller be honest with them

To play devil’s advocate she did say she was sending to a retrainer and not allowing trials so presumably she’s trying to make this horse safer for riders. She didn’t want to scare you away but she did say you can’t sit on him

[Where_sMyWhite]

@mvp

The healthy thing to do is to walk from this deal. After that, you do as your pros did: You share what you know about the horse (and not the hearsay of third parties) on a “need to know” basis. If someone asks you about the horse, you tell the truth. But you don’t broadcast that truth unsolicited.

@Posting_Trot

There could be all kinds of different sides to this particular hot mess, and you’ve mostly heard the coach’s side. Just move on in your search and let this horse be.

@skydy

Just don’t do it. You can warn your friends verbally, in person, but don’t write anything that you’ve heard second hand.If you had seen it happen that would be different, but you weren’t there and you didn’t.

You should only be telling friends/family about things that you directly observed or experience. Anything else would be here say. What your trainer told you is their opinion and experience. Who knows what the truth is.

IMO, I’m in the ‘say nothing to the seller’ camp other than ‘no thank, he’s not the horse for me’ and move on. You, more than likely, won’t change their behavior. You, more than likely, don’t want to be known as someone who passes along rumors and opinions that are not yours to others.

[Scribbler]

If a friend, someone who trusted me, told me they were interested in the horse, I would relate the entire story, pointing out that the seller indeed behaved ethically to you (didn’t let you ride the horse, was sending it to boot camp, basically pulled him off the active market) and you have not seen the horse in person.

If I heard via the grapevine that a frenemy or frenemy of a frenemy or distant acquaintance was interested in the horse, I would not go out of my way to trash the horse to them. Besides they probably wouldn’t believe me.

Realize that what’s happened here sounds like: ad gets written. Horse acts up in possibly surprising way during sales period, someone gets hurt. Seller pulls horse off market and sends horse to trainer, but doesn’t change ad because they hope to get to the root of the problem.

I’m just not sure what here is unethical. We don’t know that they put a known bronc up for sale as a kid’s horse and deliberately let 12 year olds and pony mums get launched to ER. The horse also injured the seller, btw.

It doesn’t sound like they are going to let anyone try the horse until they have the problem sorted out.

I actually think they are behaving ethically here, the only quibble is that they didn’t take down the ad after the horse launched them (or others).

[Calhoun]

@doctordarling

I’ve drafted the seller a letter’ – explaining I have anonymous information I will not share with her, but that shows evidence she’s misrepresented the horse’s temperament. And that I want her to disclose to all future interested buyers fully openly and honestly the reasons why the horse did not sell at the last attempt.

Wait, did I read this right? How would you police this? Unfortunately, you have no control over how the seller intends to market the horse. If there was a way, most used car dealers would be out of business. The only positive thing you can do is the same as the local professional who told you not to buy. Too bad there’s not a carfax.com for horses.

[rothmpp]

@EmilyM

Definitely don’t write this letter but if anyone ever asks about this seller be honest with them

Definitely this. I had a bad experience with a trainer who was supposed to sell my horse. It did not go weel for me and I don’t think the trainer did right by me or the horse, but I don’t broadcast the story/situation. I try to be honest but use tact when anyone asks me about the trainer.

[Ruth0552]

So… you literally saw a video of this horse breaking the mom’s arm at it’s last sales showing? I am curious about how your local professional got the video- is she their trainer? The pro that went with them? Or is this video being forwarded from pro to pro?

In any case, no do not send a letter. I would not contact the woman again. If I were you, and she contacted me, I would tell her that some information came to light that led you to believe that the horse is in need of an experienced rider and you are no longer interested. If she asks about what information, you can tell her there’s a video of the horse breaking that poor woman’s arm (as long as it doesn’t screw over your local pro friend). However, if I did encounter someone planning on going to look at the horse, I would be open about what information I KNOW: I called about it, the horse was going for 2 weeks of training, but there is a video of the horse broncing after a cavaletti in it’s last sales showing and both the mom and daughter were injured. Particularly if it was a kid that was going to try it.

Frankly, if the horse has done PC stuff in the past and is now billed as “not suitable for jumping” and broncing over a cavaletti I’m guessing it has a soundness issue. Probably needs to see a vet.

[merrygoround]

Consider yourself lucky you have been warned, so you can waste no more time on it

Run, do not walk away. If asked, explain. If not asked, don’t offer.

Good luck in future searches.