Mixed-group turn-out advice needed

[awaywego]

How have you successfully introduced a mixed turnout group? I had 4 horses who went out 2 by 2 and everything was great: 2 geldings, a mare and a gelding. No one was particularly herd-bound so any horse could leave their buddy and still see the others, no drama. I had to put down one of the 2 geldings who went together, so now I have a lonely gelding. The temporary solution is to put the remaining two geldings together and leave the mare solo - she is ok solo but definitely is more rideable when she has her buddy to to run around with and get her ya-ya’s out :lol: I really would like to try all 3 together but the one gelding has never gone out with mares. He is a very agreeable gelding - maybe TOO agreeable as he assumes everyone is his friend who thinks it’s ok to rub his face on their back whenever he has an itch :lol: I tried him out with the mare a few years ago after they’d spent a long day on the trailer together… she went to get a drink, he assumed it was ok to drink at the same time because shucks, everyone loves me! Maresy made a mare face which he did not seem to realize meant GO AWAY - so he proceeded to attempt to drink anyway and she blasted him with both hind legs in his ribs :eek::no: He ran away in terror and was ok but I was horrified and haven’t tried again since because there was no need at the time to upset the applecart.

Well now my applecart has been upset and I’m wondering if there is a better way to introduce them to turnout together? They are all agreeable over the fence and maresy is actually not mare-ish AT ALL and he has never expressed any “oooo, a girl!” interest. Is it just not worth the risk? The gelding wears hind shoes but the mare does not. He has terrible feet so I really cannot pull his hind shoes for any length of time - I’ve had him 10 years, including boarding at a couple of different places, and have not seen him be a kicker, but I wouldn’t want to find out he is when it comes to a mare. I really do not want to get another horse but I feel like that is my only option. (Try explaining that one to DH…:lol:)

[beowulf]

Another one of those “Really depends” dynamics…

Hind shoes in a herd setting is not ideal. I have one with hind shoes, but if he was prone to using his hind feet liberally, he would not have them… So something to keep an eye on…

I’ve done mixed herds (mares/geldings) - there’s really no secret ratio, it depends entirely on the personalities in the mix and the management (keeping resources plentiful and far apart).

If I were you I would do as you have been doing; make sure the two geldings “new” to each other are still doing well. At some point, put the two strangers (assuming mare, and one of the geldings) together – without the gelding that is used to being with the mare.

It’s better to have all parts introduced to one another for a week or so, before you put them all together. So, I would maybe have the “new-to-mare” gelding with the mare during the night or day, and then swap him back with his gelding buddy the other half of the time. Ideal to also have the strangers share a fence line for a week or two.

As far as keeping it working - really, a lot of the issues come from resources being limited or too close together. Make sure hay piles are at least 40ft apart, if you can. Offer two different water spots. If you don’t have a big enough run in shed or stall, make sure you either section it off weather permitting, or, offer a second shed/stall arrangement.

Good luck! I’ve had mares with geldings, geldings with mares – even once, a mare with six geldings… It’s more about the personalities and the set up, than just the gender.

[Equkelly]

I personally would be comfortable trying it. They figure out what the “get away from me” look means pretty fast when it’s followed by a kick to the rib cage. He’ll learn to stay out of her way and she’ll probably eventually care less and less about his presence. The key is to make sure they have plenty of room to move away from each other to sort out their differences so if it’s a huge turnout pasture you should be fine. Also you can help the gelding out by adding a second water tank and extra hay piles so it’s easier for him to stay out of her way.

Obviously there’s always a risk with turnout but I believe horses are just happier and healthier when they have buddies so it’s a risk worth taking. If they get along fine over the fence I see no reason why it wouldn’t work out. The only time I think “mixed” pastures really don’t work is when you have a gelding that was gelded super late and acts like a stud. A sweet passive gelding should be fine though.

[awaywego]

Thanks @beowulf , the “resources” bit is why I am thinking about this right now while I have SO.MUCH.GRASS (it’s really amazing for the end of August!) I don’t like to introduce new horses in the winter for this very reason - hay just does not have the same effect as grass when it comes to keeping them out of trouble We have good sized pastures so there is plenty of space to get out of the way if the clueless gelding would understand that sometimes girls require some space :lol:

It has occurred to me that I could just create a whole new set of problems if I do get them all together - the clueless gelding lived with a retiree who never left. He has herd bound tendencies so he may not like having the mare leave while I ride her or go to a show. Oy.

Last winter the mare went south so I may just do that again - makes things easier all the way around. I grew up with 2 mares and 3 geldings together quite a bit - I know it can work. I also think I don’t need avoidable vet bills - just spend that same money on more fence :lol:

[awaywego]

thank you @Equkelly - I agree with you that I think they are better off with buddies. I just don’t know if I have the stomach to see another kick to the ribs I like the ideas to add another water tub! They’re all super laid back types, it really seems like it SHOULD work.

[Equkelly]

@awaywego

thank you @Equkelly - I agree with you that I think they are better off with buddies. I just don’t know if I have the stomach to see another kick to the ribs I like the ideas to add another water tub! They’re all super laid back types, it really seems like it SHOULD work.

I know it’s hard because we’ve all heard stories about one horse that got kicked and had a life threatening injury but in reality, horses kick and bite each other all the time and that’s just part of herd dynamics. Most of the time they’re fine and they’ll move out of the way. And it’s only usually really bad in the beginning while they’re still sorting out their politics. My mare is always the horse that’s on the bottom of the totem pole so I get the anxiety though. But lots of room, introducing them beforehand, adding extra resources so they don’t have to compete, and keeping the herd small are all things you can do to minimize the risk and the anxiety!

[beowulf]

@Equkelly

I know it’s hard because we’ve all heard stories about one horse that got kicked and had a life threatening injury but in reality, horses kick and bite each other all the time and that’s just part of herd dynamics. Most of the time they’re fine and they’ll move out of the way. And it’s only usually really bad in the beginning while they’re still sorting out their politics. My mare is always the horse that’s on the bottom of the totem pole so I get the anxiety though. But lots of room, introducing them beforehand, adding extra resources so they don’t have to compete, and keeping the herd small are all things you can do to minimize the risk and the anxiety!

I would argue that frequent kicking is not part of good herd dynamics.

Biting is normal and is a ‘close range attack’, so a horse that gets bitten usually has nothing but themselves to blame… But kicks are life-threatening and a horse that is quick with his hind end should probably live alone if s/he is constantly kicking out at other horses. I say that as someone who is a staunch “horses are herd animals” supporter – but I won’t force my horses to be subjected to a dangerous situation or incompatible pairing, just because I feel horses need to be together.

I hate to tempt fate so will phrase this as delicately as possible – we have a herd of six and posturing (turning their hind end, lifting one hind leg, pinning their ears while “bumping” behind) is normal behavior but kicking out is not. They are kept at home so I have a good handle of the herd dynamics; they get along very well, play extremely rough (5 am and 7 pm seem to be party time for the geldings), but I never see them do a double barrel at each other, or even a cowkick.

There’s many things you can do to mitigate the risk, but as someone who had to put down a horse due to being kicked, it’s really imperative you don’t force horses together that clearly don’t get along. I had one of my geldings on off-farm lease, and without my knowledge he was turned out with a young horse who had hind studs on. That’s a big risk, and something I would never allow at home, and I still to this day am furious about the oversight of barn staff when they did this because they ultimately killed my horse – he unfortunately got kicked by this exuberant young horse, and suffered a puncture to the stifle that was both inoperable and lethal. :no: I had to have him put down on Christmas Eve.

There are totally horses I would not put in a herd because they are a bit too quick with their hind end. Those horses can live by themselves because nothing is worth putting a horse down over a totally unnecessary risk.

[Equkelly]

@beowulf

I would argue

Course you would.

I didn’t get the vibe that OP’s mare was one of those serious ruthless kickers. I think a mare kicking out at a gelding that’s new and is getting a little too close to her bubble is pretty normal though. All horses kick but if your herd is managed appropriately and integrated correctly they just won’t.

Horses don’t want to be kicked either so IME you won’t usually have a horse getting repeatedly kicked over and over again as long as the resources are spread out and there’s enough space to sort out differences. This is why when I feed hay, it’s in lots of different spots and the piles are way spread out so each one is out of striking range.

It’s just that beginning period where they don’t read each others body language as well and some horses can just be social dummies and don’t pick up on the “gtfo of my way” stare. Some people just see that initial interaction and then freak out and separate the horses forever when in reality, if you just give them time they’ll usually sort it out on their own.

Like I said my mare is a bottom of the totem pole horse in any herd. I’m pretty sure even the barn cat outranks her. She rooms with a “boss mare” type that will absolutely kick at her when my mare is acting like a clown because she’s young. She’s never once made contact and she knows to stay away from that other mare’s hind end so it’s not a problem. However, if I didn’t manage the herd correctly and threw the hay in one spot and kept everyone in a tiny paddock, with limited shelter, we’d probably have issues.

[awaywego]

Agree about kicking - if I see that a horse is quick to go to the kick they go it alone. This is why I haven’t even mentioned the ancient gelding who is also currently living alone as a potential solution - I think it could be his age and fear but he is quick to go to the kick. It’s also why I am so tired of people who say their horse “gets along with everyone.” Nope nope nope :no: I have seen quite of few that “get along with everyone” spin their hind end around upon meeting. To me, that is like the person who tells me as their dog is snarling at mine, “that’s just how she says hello.” :no:

When provoked by the gelding she currently lives with, the mare will eventually resort to lifting a hind leg as warning but I have not seen her do more than that. I was genuinely surprised that she kicked my other gelding the time I tried them together. Since I bought her as a 3 year old from her breeder she has only gone out with ponies so I really wonder if size was a factor - she hadn’t gone out with anyone her own size and she looked at him and was like OMG you are HUGE :eek::lol:

[Equkelly]

@awaywego

Agree about kicking - if I see that a horse is quick to go to the kick they go it alone. This is why I haven’t even mentioned the ancient gelding who is also currently living alone as a potential solution - I think it could be his age and fear but he is quick to go to the kick. It’s also why I am so tired of people who say their horse “gets along with everyone.” Nope nope nope :no: I have seen quite of few that “get along with everyone” spin their hind end around upon meeting. To me, that is like the person who tells me as their dog is snarling at mine, “that’s just how she says hello.” :no:

When provoked by the gelding she currently lives with, the mare will eventually resort to lifting a hind leg as warning but I have not seen her do more than that. I was genuinely surprised that she kicked my other gelding the time I tried them together. Since I bought her as a 3 year old from her breeder she has only gone out with ponies so I really wonder if size was a factor - she hadn’t gone out with anyone her own size and she looked at him and was like OMG you are HUGE :eek::lol:

That’s fair. I don’t mind the kicking if they give ample warnings though which most do. My mare’s roommate will give her a look, then the ears go back, and then she lines herself up, and then she takes a few steps back, and THEN she kicks. But by the time she’s on like step 2 of that process my mare is half way across the field and well out of striking range.

[candyappy]

No matter how well they get along over the fence or as riding buddies you are always going to have the dreaded pecking order to get through when they are pastured together.

I have always kept my mares and geldings together. At first there may be an occasional scrape or bump depending on how "dense "the new arrival is in the brain department , or you can see obvious signs of fighting if the new horse is challenging the current herd boss.

If the horse you are adding is not likely to challenge for the top spot you may not have anything to worry about and after a few threats they will probably all be happy as can be.

I have 2 older mares and a young gelding together now. He wasn’t getting the message and has had some scrapes, but they are happy now:yes:

[beowulf]

@Equkelly

Course you would.

I didn’t get the vibe that OP’s mare was one of those serious ruthless kickers. I think a mare kicking out at a gelding that’s new and is getting a little too close to her bubble is pretty normal though. All horses kick but if your herd is managed appropriately and integrated correctly they just won’t.

Horses don’t want to be kicked either so IME you won’t usually have a horse getting repeatedly kicked over and over again as long as the resources are spread out and there’s enough space to sort out differences. ]This is why when I feed hay, it’s in lots of different spots and the piles are way spread out so each one is out of striking range.

It’s just that beginning period where they don’t read each others body language as well and some horses can just be social dummies and don’t pick up on the “gtfo of my way” stare. Some people just see that initial interaction and then freak out and separate the horses forever when in reality, if you just give them time they’ll usually sort it out on their own.

Like I said my mare is a bottom of the totem pole horse in any herd. I’m pretty sure even the barn cat outranks her. She rooms with a “boss mare” type that will absolutely kick at her when my mare is acting like a clown because she’s young. She’s never once made contact and she knows to stay away from that other mare’s hind end so it’s not a problem. However, if I didn’t manage the herd correctly and threw the hay in one spot and kept everyone in a tiny paddock, with limited shelter, we’d probably have issues.

There is safely letting horses work out their hierarchy post introduction, and then there is intelligently avoiding a big vet bill/unnecessary death by pulling incompatible personalities instead of “trying to make it work”. A reminder that if you are barn staff or responsible for someone else’s horse, your lapse in judgment could kill someone’s horse.

Just like people and dogs, there are some horses who will not get along no matter how much time or effort you put into it. A little bit of squealing, striking out with fronts, and posturing is okay and normal. Seeing repeated kicking, especially when there is contact, is not… Constant kicking is not normal and you should not see it “all the time” per your original post.

The gelding I mentioned that I had PTS had been with this horse for a year so it was not a new turnout buddy, and he wasn’t kicked over hay or resources. The horse had just been turned out and chased him down and kicked him. Thanks for insinuating that it was just a matter of an ignoramus putting a hay-pile in the wrong spot. :rolleyes:

[Equkelly]

@beowulf

There is safely letting horses work out their hierarchy post introduction, and then there is intelligently avoiding a big vet bill/unnecessary death by pulling incompatible personalities instead of “trying to make it work”. A reminder that if you are barn staff or responsible for someone else’s horse, your lapse in judgment could kill someone’s horse.

Just like people and dogs, there are some horses who will not get along no matter how much time or effort you put into it. A little bit of squealing, striking out with fronts, and posturing is okay and normal. Seeing repeated kicking, especially when there is contact, is not… Constant kicking is not normal and you should not see it “all the time” per your original post.

The gelding I mentioned that I had PTS had been with this horse for a year so it was not a new turnout buddy, and he wasn’t kicked over hay or resources. The horse had just been turned out and chased him down and kicked him. Thanks for insinuating that it was just a matter of an ignoramus putting a hay-pile in the wrong spot. :rolleyes:

Didn’t insinuate you did anything wrong. Horses kick each other. It happens. You control what you can to mitigate the risks you can but there are some things that are unavoidable. I’ve seen hundreds of horses get kicked in my life time and none of them have ever been a serious injury. Horses kick each other. It happens. I’m sorry, there’s no need to clutch your pearls over it. Obviously you don’t put a horse that hasn’t been properly socialized growing up and is aggressive or has a screw loose but I’m not going to send a horse to solitary confinement because he kicked somebody once or twice.

I am flattered you feel the need to write an essay disagreeing with anything I say, no matter how pointless the topic is though.

[endlessclimb]

Is it a full moon or something? Or did everyone’s wheaties get peed on? Good lord. :lol:

[S1969]

I’d be more concerned about the two geldings posturing for the mare’s attention. That has been my experience, although I have kept mostly mares so the geldings tended to be the odd man out with a few exceptions.

I think there is nothing to do but try and see. I would expect some antics and faces but I wouldn’t want actual double-barrel kicking - not more than once. :eek: If that happened and didn’t seem to be settling down I’d be wary to keep trying without thinking through some other options.

Maybe my horses are just lazy but I haven’t seen one kick another in years. Or, maybe ever. Once I had two geldings that didn’t get along and one would chase the other down to get him away from “his mare.” Eventually I just put the boys out together and the mare went alone for a few weeks, and then they were fine. My mares just make nasty faces at each other.

[beowulf]

@endlessclimb

Is it a full moon or something? Or did everyone’s wheaties get peed on? Good lord. :lol:

shrug Just trying to prevent what happened to me from happening to other people. It sucked, and was totally because of a lapse of judgment on a barn worker’s behalf. I don’t think kicking is normal in a healthy herd with a good dynamic, but YMMV.

[awaywego]

Now I feel like this post ended up being the virtual equivalent of putting the horses all together: a dust-up and now everyone retreating to their respective corners of the field :lol:

I really think in some ways we do our horses a disservice by splitting them up by gender when they are young - the geldings I have had that are fine with mares were turned out with the when they were young and seem to have a better understanding of pasture etiquette. Unfortunately that ship sailed a long time ago for mine. DH would say that the obvious answer here is to get rid of one horse, not add another :lol:

[kashmere]

I’d echo @beowulf’s advice on this one. I don’t get fussed if my horse who lives out with a mixed herd comes in with a bite mark now and then, or if I see one of her herdmates giving her the stink eye or the snakey head or the bum swing, but if I see actual kicking out with any more frequency than “extremely rarely” it’s a problem.

[awaywego]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I might try again when we switch back to day grazing in a few weeks, while there’s still lots of grass and can keep a better eye on things.
As if losing a horse wasn’t tough enough - he was the glue that held it all together