http://fourplustwo.com.au/spectacular-gaits-vs-equine-health/
It’s interesting … claptrap. Diagonal advanced placement in trot is not anything new, and horses of all types and breeds have always done this. And it certainly isn’t a bad thing (and you do know the great Valegro is “guilty” of this as well, don’t you?)
I have news for the speaker with the heavy accent: fetlocks sinking to the ground is and always has been a part of normal horse locomotion.
Here are a couple of interesting videos showing the amazing flexibility of the equine limb:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dSLLf4K80U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec27b0ZidQU
And some photos of Valegro’s horrible “one-legged trot” :lol:
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/hfournier/library/Dressage/Valegro
No more Kool-Aid for you!
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This is the video that Caol Ilia was talking about in the Zonik tread.
I saw it a few time and really, it is bullshit. Why can’t anyone do unbiaised research!!! Like real studies, that isn’t just meant to bash on what is going on today… Yes, longer pasterns will make more fluid/floating movement. But it doesn’t mean horses will automatically break down at young ages… Bringing back the holy good old days is just getting more and more annoying…
And the “Piaffe” stallion at the end? Just as bad as the other ones.
That’s Reiner Klimke at piaffe in his 84 Olympic winning ride.
So bad positionning happened in the past too at that level…
I’ve found who it is. Liselott Linsehnoff and Piaff.
This wouldn’t be Reiner Klimke and Biotop doing the “one-legged trot” would it?
And this wouldn’t be the dreaded “sinking fetlock” would it? Way back in the good old days?
http://www.hengstenstation.com/hssystem/hengstenshow.php?target=10
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/AhlerichLA.jpg
Oh, the horror!
Never realised Ahlerich had such a sway back.
Here is the whole video of Piaff and Liselott Linsenhoff Beautifull ride and horse. I’ve done some stills and her trot/passage/piaffe is less than exemplary… not much sinking but lot’s of one leg stand.
Horses are not robots.
Wow, check out that packed arena. They are practically sitting in the audience’s lap!
Actually, long fetlocks can lead to soundness issues (more likely to have suspensory injuries) which is why the registries comment on it and mark it down in the inspection process! Having said that - of course most of this is just someone’s uneducated opinion and attempt to discredit fancy modern sport horses. And of course fetlocks almost touch the ground when the horse if moving “bigger” - the fetlock is the shock absorber - it is MEANT to do that. If it didn’t bend and give, believe me, that would be one jolting ride - for the rider AND the horse…
And I hate it when someone shows photos - a moment in time. Take that photo a split second earlier or later, and you’ll see a whole different picture! And you can see DAP in a dinky moving Shetland pony! Pretty silly.
I could start a website that says horses should start eating twigs and branches, that is what they originally ate (in the Eohippus days), so that is what we should do now, right? And get enough people on the website, and it will become the gospel truth, and everyone will condemn hay and pasture:confused:
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There are lots of photos of Advanced eventers ding the dropped fetlock after a drop jump, or racehorses in the gallop stride - and of course, speed breaks down horses.
A dropped fetlock is a term used to describe the fetlock when the horse is at rest - not in movement. Dropped fetlocks up the yin yang: https://www.google.com/search?q=dropped+fetlock&tbm=isch&imgil=Mqu7fu1geq0fGM%3A%3BITikWzX-4pVTCM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.vtnews.vt.edu%252Farticles%252F2010%252F06%252F2010-468.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=Mqu7fu1geq0fGM%3A%2CITikWzX-4pVTCM%2C_&biw=1024&bih=677&usg=__kABzay3oawE6phqZ6E_uDUD1CRQ%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjrrIitm7TJAhVK7yYKHQz-CcIQyjcIPg&ei=9jBaVuvZMcremwGM_KeQDA#imgrc=Mqu7fu1geq0fGM%3A&usg=__kABzay3oawE6phqZ6E_uDUD1CRQ%3D
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Aye, that’s the video.
As I may have said in the other thread, after watching that, I watched videos of a number of horses, including my Shire-TB and things like Highlands, QHs, cobs, TBs, on YouTube, and all fetlocks drop in the weight-bearing phase of the trot. This is how horses move.
Do more big-moving warmbloods get suspensory or other soft tissue injuries than other types of horses? I don’t know, but I bet the people who made that video don’t, either.
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8418617]
Actually, long fetlocks can lead to soundness issues (more likely to have suspensory injuries) which is why the registries comment on it and mark it down in the inspection process! Having said that - of course most of this is just someone’s uneducated opinion and attempt to discredit fancy modern sport horses. And of course fetlocks almost touch the ground when the horse if moving “bigger” - the fetlock is the shock absorber - it is MEANT to do that. If it didn’t bend and give, believe me, that would be one jolting ride - for the rider AND the horse…
And I hate it when someone shows photos - a moment in time. Take that photo a split second earlier or later, and you’ll see a whole different picture! And you can see DAP in a dinky moving Shetland pony! Pretty silly.
I could start a website that says horses should start eating twigs and branches, that is what they originally ate (in the Eohippus days), so that is what we should do now, right? And get enough people on the website, and it will become the gospel truth, and everyone will condemn hay and pasture:confused:[/QUOTE]
You mean long pasterns?
Also, you can appreciate that your last paragraph isn’t making an argument that’s quite analogous to that of the critic, right?
There’s far more dissimilarity between Eohippus and modern Equus Caballus than there is between the modern horse bauplan and the specialized animals modern breeders are after.
I think the critic makes some decent points/has some decent worries… particularly because modern horses are so much heavier and larger for the (relatively unchanged) Equid architecture than were most of their ancestors. Many of the university DVM/PhD types and farriers I used to hang with commented on the effects of size and weight as they matter for an otherwise ok body design.
So if you also bred that animal to have a hind end that generated an unusual amount of power AND he was also pretty big and heavy for his evolved body plan, I could see that creating a biomechanical problem.
[QUOTE=mvp;8419138]
You mean long pasterns? [/QUOTE]
Yes, long pasterns… Sticking with the terminology in the article and video.
[QUOTE=mvp;8419138]Also, you can appreciate that your last paragraph isn’t making an argument that’s quite analogous to that of the critic, right?
There’s far more dissimilarity between Eohippus and modern Equus Caballus than there is between the modern horse bauplan and the specialized animals modern breeders are after. [/QUOTE]
My point with the eating of twigs is anyone can put up a website with their own opinion, that does NOT make it fact.
[QUOTE=mvp;8419138]I think the critic makes some decent points/has some decent worries… particularly because modern horses are so much heavier and larger for the (relatively unchanged) Equid architecture than were most of their ancestors. Many of the university DVM/PhD types and farriers I used to hang with commented on the effects of size and weight as they matter for an otherwise ok body design.
So if you also bred that animal to have a hind end that generated an unusual amount of power AND he was also pretty big and heavy for his evolved body plan, I could see that creating a biomechanical problem.[/QUOTE]
Modern WBs are much lighter then the old style Warmbloods? Or the old style carriage horses? Or for that matter - the Andalusian, have you looked at how heavy their neck and body is in relation to their very narrow feet and light legs?
I don’t necessarily think we are breeding for better soundness now - don’t get me wrong. But I don’t think this video/article has any validity to it…
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8419465]
Yes, long pasterns… Sticking with the terminology in the article and video.
My point with the eating of twigs is anyone can put up a website with their own opinion, that does NOT make it fact.
Modern WBs are much lighter then the old style Warmbloods? Or the old style carriage horses? Or for that matter - the Andalusian, have you looked at how heavy their neck and body is in relation to their very narrow feet and light legs?
I don’t necessarily think we are breeding for better soundness now - don’t get me wrong. But I don’t think this video/article has any validity to it…[/QUOTE]
I still don’t think your Eohippus website-as-equally fallacious is useful. After all, some claims to factuality are better than others, particularly when it comes to speculations like this one.
And I think the relevant comparison here-- considering horses in evolutionary time-- is not this-in-that modern, created breed. Rather, compare all of these 16+ hand, well-muscled horses to, say, whatever they are riding in Mongolia right now. Those smaller, weedier animals of the same design are appreciably lighter and probably closer to the biomechanics of the system that worked pretty well for most Equids over evolutionary time.
And don’t forget that evolution didn’t design the best cursorial quadruped from nothin’ (nor is run the only thing a horse has to get done in order to survive and reproduce). Rather, selection pressure tinkered with the design that was given by previous ancestors. I mean, have you seen a stripped down stifle joint? Talk about bad design…
A while ago, Sue Dyson published a textbook on equine soundness, and she included some chapter on problems that show up in different breeds and disciplines. Her data was all quite anecdotal; it came from experienced vets who worked on Standardbreds or Jumpers or Reiners or whatever. By and large, the most common problem in all was foot pain. To me, that suggests that the size of modern horses and our uses of them are taxing this particular structure to the utmost. Unless you can radically redesign the perissodactyl foot (or make it much, much bigger), I think you can see where modern breeding and performance requirements have outstripped what evolution offered.
In any case, it’s always an interesting thought experiment to see how breeding trends carried out effectively (and this might take 30-50 years or more) end up sometimes creating other unexpected problems.
[QUOTE=mvp;8419579]
A while ago, Sue Dyson published a textbook on equine soundness, and she included some chapter on problems that show up in different breeds and disciplines. Her data was all quite anecdotal; it came from experienced vets who worked on Standardbreds or Jumpers or Reiners or whatever. By and large, the most common problem in all was foot pain. [/QUOTE]
Hasn’t foot pain been the most common problem in horses since the beginning of time?
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[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8418617]
Actually, long fetlocks can lead to soundness issues (more likely to have suspensory injuries) which is why the registries comment on it and mark it down in the inspection process! Having said that - of course most of this is just someone’s uneducated opinion and attempt to discredit fancy modern sport horses. And of course fetlocks almost touch the ground when the horse if moving “bigger” - the fetlock is the shock absorber - it is MEANT to do that. If it didn’t bend and give, believe me, that would be one jolting ride - for the rider AND the horse…
And I hate it when someone shows photos - a moment in time. Take that photo a split second earlier or later, and you’ll see a whole different picture! And you can see DAP in a dinky moving Shetland pony! Pretty silly.
I could start a website that says horses should start eating twigs and branches, that is what they originally ate (in the Eohippus days), so that is what we should do now, right? And get enough people on the website, and it will become the gospel truth, and everyone will condemn hay and pasture:confused:[/QUOTE]
What’s the NSC of twigs and branches?
oh man where is Euell Gibbons when you need him
[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;8419730]
Hasn’t foot pain been the most common problem in horses since the beginning of time?[/QUOTE]
And wouldn’t an equally valid conclusion be that shoes are a source of the problem? Considering that all horses in general, and certainly not in the various disciplines you mentioned, aren’t the same size…yet it is likely that the majority of competing horses wear shoes. Just so long as we’re throwing suppositions out there…
I’d love to see some back radiographs of those Mongolian horses. Sure they’re more like the original horse, but who’s to say they support the rider more soundly than the horses we’ve selected to do the job for generations? Carrying a rider was not part of the original horse design.
