Modern Pentathalon

[JER]

@trubandloki

There are numbers mentioned up thread. I think the description given is that the run and swimming times are equal to the level of an elite high school athlete. So they are for sure good at running and swimming.

The better fencers in pentathlon are national- to international-quality fencers. The current men’s world champion, who is 37 years old, has also been national champion in epee fencing (not pentathlon, this is straight fencing) in Hungary, which is one of the most competitive countries in the world for fencing.

For running, ‘elite high schoolers’ means really elite. As in, the best going on to D1 scholarships. There are pentathletes who compete at a very high level in running, including one Olympic medalist who competed at world championships (in track) in a relay.

The best swimmers are people who’ve been just below national team standard. When you leave full-time swimming - which is a total beast of a sport with high-volume training - your times will slow down because you’re no longer swimming 10k/day.

When the shooting was static shooting (10m air pistol), pentathletes were often national or international class shooters.

‘Elite high schoolers’ sells pentathletes a bit short. The top athletes are truly outstanding athletes in every discipline.

In the US, people often come to pentathlon after being successful in other sports like D1 college swimming or running. They think pentathlon is a ‘shortcut’ to the Olympics. Then they go to their first international competition and get their ass resoundingly kicked.

If anyone has questions on training, please ask. It’s interesting to see people making speculations but it might be easier just to ask for the facts.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

That’s what I’ve been trying to put into words, but couldn’t quite say–I have lots of old books on riding from the first half of the century, and, at least in the US, it wasn’t uncommon in many lesson programs (at least according to the texts) to have competent, athletic kids jumping at the canter fair-sized courses (to this weenie’s eyes) after a few months. The height combined with the lack of concern for getting concussed, it’s a feeling like time has stood still, regarding expectations.

[McGurk]

@Impractical_Horsewoman,

I was brought up in the American Forward Riding System, pioneered by Gordon Wright and Vladimir Litteaur, who came up with the system in the 1950s to serve the big new influx of suburbanites/casual riders who wanted to ride, hunt and show but were not going to spend months on a lunge line developing a truly independent seat. The heart of that system was a school horse that was “stabilized” - that would hold its pace, rhythym and gait on a loose rein and with a rider in two point. Elementary riders rode on a loose rein, used voice commands and weight, not seat, as aids, and jumped fences in two point, holding mane. Intermediate riders rode on soft contact on the flat, and jumped fences in two point, crest releasing. The key tenet of the system was non-abuse of the horse.

With a string of school horses trained this way, most students could w/t/c and jump a crossrail with cavaletti at the end of 10 lessons, and absolutely could jump a course using elementary technique in a couple of months.

The safety record of this program was EXCELLENT.

So it’s possible to do and do well, with concern for safety. It’s not all the “Hospital or get back on” mentality.

However, I do not see evidence of this approach in modern pentathlon riders in Toyko.
Imagine if those riders had come into the ring, riding forward, in two point, on light contact or loose rein. More of them might have gotten around.

PS - Sorry I’m a bit of a pedant. I still use these principles in my own teaching and riding, though I have layered on other techniques and methods. I still absolutely believe it’s the best way to START students. Those exceptional students who want to progress further can be taught additional technicques and methods. BTW, Joe Fargis and Bernie Traurig both have this background as well.

[Graymaresrule]

Most of the courses in the '60’sand 70’s were not as technical at the local level. Oh, and hunters galloped.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Yes, that’s beautifully put! And, as you eloquently state @McGurk , it’s part of a system. That’s exactly how it was described in the book. Obviously, a number of steps of that system (if that’s the ideal, that a well-rounded athlete should have basic riding ability) are being skipped now in some of these pentathlete’s training.

[McGurk]

Actually, I don’t think there’s a system in place with those athletes at all. Because any legit system would not be letting most of them jump a 3’ 6" course at their current level of competence.

Letting a novice canter fences in two point grabbing mane on a well schooled good school horse is a lot less risky than what’s happening here.

The American Forward Riding System doesn’t teach a full, following seat untile the rider’s position is stable, they can demonstrate adequate control of the horse and they understand a following hand and soft contact. Only then is sitting the canter introduced.

What you saw in most of the penthathletes was an uneducated hard or driving seat, compounded by rigid hands and arms, further compounded by an incomplete understanding of rein aids. (Lots of turning by pullng around with an inside leading rein with no give and take.) Non-abuse of the horse was not a concern.

[Darkwave]

@S1969

A lot of Olympic athletes don’t work a full time job. Because they can’t train and work and still be competitive at that level.

Agreed. And that’s one of the sacrifices that they make. Because very few get the endorsement deals/color commentary jobs that can support them after their competitive careers are over. Many of them enter the traditional workforce, where they are 5-10 years behind their peers.

As for triathlon v. pentathlon - I think one big difference is that there is some cross-over training benefit between the three sports. Swimming, biking, and running are all aerobic sports, though the mechanics are different. Training in each sport improves your aerobic capacity, which helps in all three sports. So all that time spent swimming will have some benefit to one’s cycling and running, and vice versa.

In pentathlon, it seems to me (JER can correct me as she sees fit) that there’s much less crossover between the five sports. Spending a lot of time on fencing is not going to have any benefit for your running or swimming or riding or shooting, I would think.

[MHM]

@S1969

Interesting. I think triathlon is an unusual sport for young athletes - pentathlon must be even more so. I wonder how programs recruit young athletes into the sport.

Funnily enough, I just heard a conversation the other day about a horseman who is interested in getting into pentathlon as an adult. I don’t know him myself, but I was told he already knows how to shoot and run and swim, so the only thing he would have to start from scratch is the fencing part. It will be interesting to see what happens there. Maybe we will be talking about him in four years in Paris.

I can’t imagine it would be as hard to learn the other sports as it would be to learn to ride from scratch. I think it was the speed skater Apollo Ohno who got interested in speed skating by watching the Olympics on TV, and then actually competed in the next Olympics four years later, or something similar. Which seems pretty darn remarkable, even if somebody was already quite fit and athletic. I doubt that happens very often.

[S1969]

@Darkwave

In pentathlon, it seems to me ( JER can correct me as she sees fit) that there’s much less crossover between the five sports. Spending a lot of time on fencing is not going to have any benefit for your running or swimming or riding or shooting, I would think.

Oh I agree - that’s why I’m curious how people get started. Triathlon is pretty easy to see how it happens, but even still, it’s not a sport you tend to see younger athletes participate in. It’s expensive, for one thing, and requires a lot of training time. So I would think it would be even more challenging to find younger athletes who have the interest, let alone the ability.

[JER]

@MHM

Funnily enough, I just heard a conversation the other day about a horseman who is interested in getting into pentathlon as an adult. I don’t know him myself, but I was told he already knows how to shoot and run and swim, so the only thing he would have to start from scratch is the fencing part. It will be interesting to see what happens there. Maybe we will be talking about him in four years in Paris.

Starting as an adult is fine but…

The average age of an Olympic competitor is 30 and most have been competing at the top level of the sport for over 10 years.

Paris is 3 years away. If you’re learning to fence from scratch, you might be ok in three years if you have a good coach, compete regularly and train several times per week, including private lessons. But the skilled fencers will clean your clock.

Pentathlon requires very specific skills - this is one key way in which it is unlike triathlon. You might know how to shoot but can you shoot and run to a high level? Fencing is a technical sport like riding and I don’t see anyone on here thinking that you can be an expert rider in 3 years. (It takes several years to really understand fencing when you’re watching it!).

But that’s the predominant thinking in the US (and Canada) about the sport. You pick up a sport that few people do and think it’s a shortcut to the Olympics. Then they go to their first international comp and realize that it doesn’t work that way.

[trubandloki]

@S1969

Oh I agree - that’s why I’m curious how people get started.

I think some of the people that get into it are doing the pony club route, like JER mentioned previously. Tet rally is riding, swimming, running, and shooting.

[JER]

@trubandloki

think some of the people that get into it are doing the pony club route, like JER mentioned previously. Tet rally is riding, swimming, running, and shooting.

Both of the current Olympic gold medalists got into it via Pony Club.

At Pony Club Nationals/Festival at KHP a couple of weeks ago, the director of USA Pent and I ran two days of fencing and shooting clinics. The idea was to get kids thinking about pent. The fencing was hugely popular.

[Lauruffian]

Excuse me, but WHAT the actual F***
(Referring to this video shared upthread by @bwp)

[JER]

@MHM

I think it was the speed skater Apollo Ohno who got interested in speed skating by watching the Olympics on TV, and then actually competed in the next Olympics four years later, or something similar

I looked this up… definitely not him.

Ohno started training in inline speed skating at age 8 and then switched to short track aged 13. Made his first Olympic team in 2002 when he was 20 - this is after 12 years of serious training, including full-time training from age 14 on.

[IPEsq]

I think what is the most frustrating is that these athletes are clearly athletes who also hone some specialized skills. So why is the riding so awful for most of them? They know how to train. And it is probably the most dangerous, as in potentially life threatening, of all 5 sports. Why do so few seem to care about being as good at it as the other sports? I think it’s partially because they can literally crash through and still progress, despite that being a bad idea for a number of reasons. Why so much blaming the horses? If they replaced it with downhill MTB, would they crash their way through that course as well? I’d bet they’d figure out a way to train appropriately.

[Equkelly]

@IPEsq

I think what is the most frustrating is that these athletes are clearly athletes who also hone some specialized skills. So why is the riding so awful for most of them? They know how to train. And it is probably the most dangerous, as in potentially life threatening, of all 5 sports. Why do so few seem to care about being as good at it as the other sports?

That’s what I used to think but after listening to @JER and looking at the times for the running and swimming they’re really not what I would consider elite in the other sports either. Those times for running and swimming would only be really competitive in high school. I just don’t think the issue is that their riding is really that much worse than the other sports but the bar was just literally too high for the riding portion and they’re set up to fail.

[S1969]

@Equkelly

Those times for running and swimming would only be really competitive in high school.

But keep in mind the events are all in one day. And, for example, while the athlete might be able to run faster, they have to still be able to shoot, so they can’t be gasping for breath.

The times they could put down for any of the events individually are certainly a lot faster than the combined effort for various reasons.

[JER]

@Equkelly

That’s what I used to think but after listening to @JER and looking at the times for the running and swimming they’re really not what I would consider elite in the other sports either. Those times for running and swimming would only be really competitive in high school

I’ve explained a couple of times how this isn’t entirely accurate.

[Darkwave]

@S1969

But keep in mind the events are all in one day. And, for example, while the athlete might be able to run faster, they have to still be able to shoot, so they can’t be gasping for breath.

It’s funny - I did a running track workout of 6x800 yesterday. Since it was a workout and not a race, I didn’t run the 800s all out.

And yet I assure you there’s no way I could have picked up a gun, fired, and hit a target immediately after each 800.

[JER]

@Darkwave

And yet I assure you there’s no way I could have picked up a gun, fired, and hit a target immediately after each 800.

It just takes some training.

Of course, the good athletes go 5 for 5 on their shoots with a total time of 7-8 seconds.

You’ll see total shooting times - 4 rounds of 5 hits - as low as 36 seconds.

As a runner, you’ll realize that this means you don’t get much of a break between the 800s.

The laser run is really hard but also really fun.