Money or nothing

[NoSuchPerson]

@glenburn

Yes, horse shows are expensive. We see many riders who simply are not ready to show and should be practicing at home. If you love horses and riding, concentrate on that. Even more ridiculous is someone going to WEF to do some low low hunter division. As a famous rider/friend said we go for the following; to win everything or to sell a good one.

You’re ignoring economics. Horse shows that don’t bring in lots of competitors aren’t economically viable. The numbers of riders capable of competing over the bigger fences in the classes you would have shows restrict themselves to are dwindling.

You should be grateful to those folks who want to show at WEF and WEC in low low hunter divisions because they’re helping subsidize the rest of you.

Ditto for the trainers. Being able to take half (or more) of their lesson program to these big shows helps make it economically viable. Without those more numerous low hunter riders there to help pay the overhead, the few higher level riders in the program would be paying a lot more to be there.

[glenburn]

Please re-read about the complaint of cost. If you are doing the low hunters in WEF for the season and spending about six figures, there is no room for a complaint about expense. I have volunteered to pay the entry of others just to fill the 3’6" A/O division, at shows where this division used to be crowded. Regarding cost, some of my best memories were the Southern Pines schooling shows (all voluntary) that would precede WEF or Devon. You were in the same class with David, Patty, Joey, and it was fun and relaxed. A shame shows are mostly humorless business and everyone acts so entitled. Hope you have more fun than your response suggests.

[Foitin]

I think the point about having fun is very important, and you can do this in many different divisions, from cross rails to the high adult jumpers. A few weeks ago, 4 people in our barn were in the same adult hunter division. we joked around so much we annoyed our trainer, but that was the most fun I’d had at a horse show in three years. I was not champion and chipped twice and got a crap ribbon in the classic. I do think that the 3´6’’ divisions are difficult to fill at smaller shows/less popular circuits because the horses are so ridiculously expensive and yes, it is kinda scary to jump that big and if you do decide to do it, you really need to practice and be riding multiple horses, at least at home. Last year there were about 30 older 3’6’’ amateurs at indoors, but in our region, there are usually 5 or 6, the last Upperville had 11. Just in the Upperville group, I know of 2 or 3 horses that were purchased for over 1million. Another individuals’s practice horse was “several hundred thousand dollars.” There were more local individuals with atypical horses that were found doing one thing and made to do another (my case), but its a tough crowd.

[NoSuchPerson]

No. Without all the other riders, there won’t be a show at all. Do you think people who put on horse shows do it just for fun? No. They need to make a profit.

Sure, it might be cheaper for you but you’re the only one who really cares about that. Shows are run the way they are to maximize profit and sustainability.

Also, the way shows are run in Europe really has very little relevance to the way shows are run in the US.

[NoSuchPerson]

@glenburn

Hope you have more fun than your response suggests.

I have a fantastic time at horse shows. I wouldn’t do it if I didn’t. But, as I have already said multiple times in this discussion, I mostly show on a local circuit with 2-day shows, i.e. shows that I can afford to attend.

However, that does not mean that I’m blind to the economic realities of horse showing at both lower and upper levels.

[glenburn]

Respectfully, comments without corresponding experience isn’t very definitive.

[NoSuchPerson]

Pretty much anytime someone starts a sentence with “respectfully,” you know that what follows isn’t meant to be respectful at all.

What I’m doing now as an old lady doesn’t mean that it’s the only thing I’ve ever done.

[glenburn]

“Respectfully” in my usage means respectful to the facts and not disrespectful to the person. All opinions have value and deserve respect, especially those with experience. My apologies and respect are offered. Thank you.

[danhelm441]

I live in a HCOL area that also happens to be extremely horsey. Gorgeous facilities with immaculate indoors are everywhere. The going rate for training board is $3500/mo. You can go to shows almost any weekend and see 6-figure horses competing in every division, right up to the hunter derby and Grand Prix.

These horses just take your breath away they are so beautifully conditioned and trained. Last time we went to a show, we ran into the most beautiful hunter just bopping along on slack reins past the port-a-potties with a girl who couldn’t have been older than 13 hanging with her feet out of the stirrups like it was the most casual thing in the world. It was surreal. Idk how to describe it except it gave you the same frisson as a celebrity sighting.

My non-horsey friend who was with me was like, “does that bother you?” Seeing kids with horses like that, showing at venues like that. And the true answer is that no, honestly, it doesn’t bother me. It’s not the fancy made horses, high-end venues, or high level classes I feel envious about. What gets me jealous is the riding education some people get, and their access and exposure to quality training and people who know what they’re doing. I think people can take that for granted. But it’s just so inequitable, honestly, how horsemanship knowledge is passed around. Sure there are books and YouTube videos, and Noelle Floyd master classes these days, but imho there is no substitute for working directly with horses who know their jobs and people who know how to get horses to that level.

My vet put me in touch with a girl who’s started coming out to ride my horse. She’s a vet tech, doesn’t have her own horse, she grew up showing but doesn’t anymore. But she’s the person I’m jealous of, not the AA’s with hack winning hunters showing every weekend. She just has so much skill and training knowledge, growing up in a horse mecca and spending years riding. I feel like I’ve learned so much and improved my riding just from watching her ride my horse. Idk, it’s wild how much time you can waste in your riding life with no clue what you are doing, trying to figure it out as you go from people who are also figuring it out as they go. I’m sure some people can be self-taught wonders and some horses are born broke packers, but when you and your horse are just a couple of normies, having access to real training knowledge and quality coaching is game changing

[Rumorhasit93]

I’m the first to admit as a 30 year old that my mom is the reason it’s possible for me to have a horse. I pay for the shows and she supports everything else (MRI last year on the horse, purchase price of course, and ongoing feed/shavings). I pay for any equipment I want and all show & lesson expenses.

I have many friends like this, but I’m pretty open who pays for what.

[Hoofbeat_Heartbeat]

31 year old here, only reason I’m able to do this (AO horse, 4-5 “A” shows per year), is because of my mom, and the fact that my husband and I live with her, essentially opening up costs for horse. Husband and I bought horse (inheritance following the passing of my father), husband/myself pay for shows/vet/farrier/miscellaneous, mom pays for board/training.

[GypsyWind]

I just finished reading through this and now I’m curious. Are western and eventing barns following suit with the must have stall board, be in a full training program, etc.?

[Prima_Donna]

That’s my usual. My horse does better away from the stress of the stall at a show. Sometimes I even found a local farm that would rent me a field for overnight summer turnout rather than stable at a show. For now, I’ve given up on rated shows and I’ll just do unrated local shows when the desire hits. They’re under $200 in entries and fees near me.

[clanter]

@Prima_Donna

My horse does better away from the stress of the stall at a show.

we found that if the horse is to be shown that getting them into that environment at an early age really increases their confidence

our new weanling at a thousand plus head show, he was just over 4 months at the time

[Alterration]

We don’t have many eventing barns in my area but those that are, are moving to the model.

The western ones (non-show related) are just going out of business. We have lost 4 large ones in the last year.

[findeight]

Requiring full care board and being in a program is not discipline specific. Depends on what the barn needs to generate income wise and that depends on many factors. Everything from cost of the property like rent/ lease/mortgage and property tax, insurance to actual operating costs like utilities, feed, bedding, repairs plus staff. Some people actually add on something resembling a living wage. Or try to.

No two barns are exactly alike and there’s no etched in stone standard. Comparisons are difficult.

[Alterration]

@findeight

Requiring full care board and being in a program is not discipline specific. Depends on what the barn needs to generate income wise and that depends on many factors. Everything from cost of the property like rent/ lease/mortgage and property tax, insurance to actual operating costs like utilities, feed, bedding, repairs plus staff. Some people actually add on something resembling a living wage. Or try to.

It’s not just the money although it’s a major factor. I changed to the model when a horse that was not in training and I couldn’t help nearly killed me. I won’t risk my bodily health for people who are following their own “training methods” that result in a rude horse that rushes over people.

[Alterration]

@Amberley

Why don’t you just ask those people to leave? Our barn will not take horses that are unsafe to handle period, its in the contract that if it’s deemed unsafe the staff will no longer handle the horse and you have 7 days to relocate it. They are fine with hot horses, fit horses etc but noting dangerous.

I have. But I flat out won’t take them in anymore. It only takes one time to get seriously injured or killed.

[Alterration]

That is correct.

That particular boarder is gone, but I will never put myself in danger like that again. It’s not worth it. The stress of trying to get her to do the right thing (the horse actually came in pretty well trained, and degenerated over the year of her being here with her “training” methods) was enough to make me say I won’t do it. Especially not for -$5 an hour.

She wasn’t the only issue beyond the financials, but she was the final straw.

Regular boarding barns are closing in my area. As I mentioned above we’ve lost like 4 in the last year. Some of it is developers coming in and offering big money, and quite frankly, boarding is hard to justify financially (even if you spend close to $1200-1500 a month) compared to a really nice lump sum of millions to purchase the land. Most of the remaining ones are full training only shy of 2, which are more than an hour from the city.

I don’t do this for money (clearly not, because I’m not making any). I inherited boarders when I bought the property for my own horses and didn’t evict them because they had nowhere else to go and I’m not a jerk (at least not last I checked). I used to manage a 30 stall facility when I was young and knew from that experience that I had absolutely zero desire to deal with horse owners, who can be the most difficult people on the planet. They’ll nickel and dime you, pay late, all while sharing pictures on social media of their vacations. They’ll argue with you over pookie’s care when they haven’t the foggiest about what pookie actually needs, test the barn rules like kindergarteners, and are generally rude to staff and hard hard hard on the facilities.

Things HAVE changed in the last 30 years. Customers have. Their views on training have. Some of that is good. Some of that is not so good.

I think we’re about to lose an industry. The vets, farriers, trainers, and other barn owners I’ve spoken to are all seeing the writing on the wall. I’m not sure what to do about it other than to sound the alarm. I’m in a barn owner’s group on Facebook and I’d say about every 3rd day there’s another announcement of someone that has quit boarding other people’s horses because it’s not worth the hassle anymore.

[big_blue]

I entered the h/j world as a complete beginner AA five years ago