Monzante: G1 racehorse, winner of >$500k, dies for $4k

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=M.K.Smith;7091676]
Is it possible or would it be possible that there could be a way on the papers to identify that a certain owner expresses interest in retiring a horse? I am sure there are lots of breeders or owners that would love to retire their horses or ensure that they don’t fall through the cracks. But, even if you care about a horse… show horse…breeding horse… race horse… how do you keep tabs on your former horse… especially if there are 100s or thousands of former horses.[/QUOTE]

I understand the Zitos put a note on papers of horses they’ve had indicating contact them if the horse is in a bad place. Obviously that only works as long as the horse is racing, unless once it leaves the track its papers are kept with it religiously. There’s nothing ENFORCEABLE about it. And the JC has Thoroughbred Connect, but I haven’t heard yet of anyone getting a horse that way (and some posters on here have pointed out an online thing like that is not necessarily something a lot of trainers and owners are aware of or in the case of trainers at smaller tracks necessarily have easy access to.) That doesn’t even begin to address racehorses who’ve left the track, maybe without papers because the seller didn’t want them raced, maybe they’ve been showing under a show name…

And for a lot of owners, I’m sure that they might like to retire a horse in theory, but they aren’t living on a big farm with lots of room for animals. Retire to where? Old Friends can’t take every hard luck case out there. And a lot of people are going to resist the idea of just killing every horse that doesn’t have a “forever home”, so I don’t think paying to destroy them would fly.

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=CrowneDragon;7092932]
A lot of owners are gamblers, sports people, and business people. They aren’t horse people or animal lovers. These types of issues don’t dawn on them, just the finances.[/QUOTE]

Horses are a 24/7 365 labor of love, especially at the lower levels. You don’t train 4k claimers for the fame and glory. This horse was owned by his trainer so there was no gambler, business person calling his shots.

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;7093086]
Horses are a 24/7 365 labor of love, especially at the lower levels. You don’t train 4k claimers for the fame and glory. This horse was owned by his trainer so there was no gambler, business person calling his shots.[/QUOTE]

Not to mention a lot of us gamblers pay more attention than sunny-day fans who only notice G1 races (ie the FoBs, the weirdos who obsess over Zenyatta or RA, etc.) I don’t gamble on horse racing because I like to gamble, I could go waste time on slot machines if I wanted to do that. I gamble on racing because I like gambling on RACING. No horses means nothing to bet on.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=danceronice;7093400]
Not to mention a lot of us gamblers pay more attention than sunny-day fans who only notice G1 races (ie the FoBs, the weirdos who obsess over Zenyatta or RA, etc.) I don’t gamble on horse racing because I like to gamble, I could go waste time on slot machines if I wanted to do that. I gamble on racing because I like gambling on RACING. No horses means nothing to bet on.[/QUOTE]

I live in a state with casinos but no racetracks or gambling on horses in any shape, form or fashion. We also don’t have a lottery. I simply do not gamble because casino gambling to me is just throwing money down a rat hole. The house ALWAYS wins. Gambling on horses would be a pleasure because I love racing, love horses, and love the fact that the outcomes are not computer controlled.

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7093628]
I live in a state with casinos but no racetracks or gambling on horses in any shape, form or fashion. We also don’t have a lottery. I simply do not gamble because casino gambling to me is just throwing money down a rat hole. The house ALWAYS wins. Gambling on horses would be a pleasure because I love racing, love horses, and love the fact that the outcomes are not computer controlled.[/QUOTE]

Honestly? On the slots, the machines are rigged to favor the gamblers, because if they were “honest” (ie truly random), mathematically they’d NEVER pay out. Even on a very basic game with only six tumblers with six symbols on each to get all six in line is something like 1 in 46,000. I’ve tried to explain to my coworkers, in the kind of gambling I do I don’t think it’ actually possible to get even the most favorable odds a slot machine can have on the longest shot in history in a parimutuel field. At least in tribal gaming they’re all set so that before X amount is reached (varies based on are they a 1cent, 25 cent, $1 machine, etc) it’ll hit. We get at least a couple jackpots a night. If you want a game in a casino that takes any skill at all, though, you have to with the table games. Slots are just pure luck that you’re on the machine that’s going to hit. If you want one you’re almost SURE to win, stick to the 50-50 bets you can do at roulette.

Horses, on the other hand, yep, there’s skill involved. And then, horses being horses, they do screw with you sometimes. Had one today with a ruined ten-cent super because one horse just did not do what everything on paper said he should. (Dammit, horse, don’t you read the Form?!? You should have been fourth best in that field! :lol:)

[Lynnwood]

Its a shame it happened to him.

Its a bigger shame to see people using his death like a witch hunt. Attempting to pigeon hole every race horse into some classification based on human thoughts and emotions. He should have been retired by his G1 owners , why ? I don’t think the horse knew or cared one lick that he was running in a 4k claimer vs a 100k graded stakes.

The question that needs answering is are the vet checks and logistics thorough enough to protect horses from unscrupulous people. Find a way to keep unsoundness and horses running with prior issues out of the start gate. If Monzante was of good health had no glaring physical reason he should not race then his break down was simply a tragic accident.

If your angry that “you” would have retired that horse then I suggest you get out and get your claim tickets in. Put your money where your keyboard is and do something rather then imply what others should do.

There are plenty of gritty sound horses that enjoy being races horses in their 4k claiming races.

[daisycutter87]

this same scenario happens everyday in the race world; especially with the geldings. A few years ago there was a horse in NY on the track listings that was a derby horse, stakes winner, won over 400K and had overly large ankles from being run into the ground as he fell through the cracks. It’s something no one in the racing world will admit is a problem because let’s face it; sad ends to older racehorses is a common issue no matter how much trainers claim to “care”. frankly, i’m tired of hearing it

[Angelico]

[QUOTE=daisycutter87;7094979]
this same scenario happens everyday in the race world; especially with the geldings. A few years ago there was a horse in NY on the track listings that was a derby horse, stakes winner, won over 400K and had overly large ankles from being run into the ground as he fell through the cracks. It’s something no one in the racing world will admit is a problem because let’s face it; sad ends to older racehorses is a common issue no matter how much trainers claim to “care”. frankly, i’m tired of hearing it[/QUOTE]

Sad endings to older horses in general is a common issue. No matter what discipline, and nobody here is denying that.

[NCRider]

[QUOTE=Angelico;7094982]
Sad endings to older horses in general is a common issue. No matter what discipline, and nobody here is denying that.[/QUOTE]

I will confess to finding it more sad when it’s a horse that has actually earned enough money to merit retirement. Most horses are large money pits, but some of them have won their owners more money than they cost. When those horses have a sad and painful end in low level claimers, it bothers me more because it’s a direct result of multiple people not giving a flying $%*%. It’s not about economics. And that makes me feel bad about loving the sport.

It’s a game of hot potato and no one wants to be left holding the potato. Sometimes I wonder, if I really knew how unsound your average track horse is as they fall down the levels, would I still be able to justify to myself continuing to follow the sport.

[saratoga]

[QUOTE=NCRider;7095057]
Sometimes I wonder, if I really knew how unsound your average track horse is as they fall down the levels, would I still be able to justify to myself continuing to follow the sport.[/QUOTE]

Me too. Especially when I go to Saratoga or Santa Anita, everything is just so astonishingly beautiful on the surface that you don’t want to think about how much ugliness is right below it.

On a much happier note, I just read that the horse Convocation had fallen down to the bottom level claimers at Suffolk and Centennial Farms (I think) bought him back. I remember seeing him in the Woodward a few years ago. Its good to know that there are some top level people who care and I do think that its great PR for them. Hopefully, if nothing else, they wont want their names brought up in a Monzante situation and that will encourage them to be kind to their old horses.

[NCRider]

[QUOTE=saratoga;7095226]
Me too. Especially when I go to Saratoga or Santa Anita, everything is just so astonishingly beautiful on the surface that you don’t want to think about how much ugliness is right below it.

On a much happier note, I just read that the horse Convocation had fallen down to the bottom level claimers at Suffolk and Centennial Farms (I think) bought him back. I remember seeing him in the Woodward a few years ago. Its good to know that there are some top level people who care and I do think that its great PR for them. Hopefully, if nothing else, they wont want their names brought up in a Monzante situation and that will encourage them to be kind to their old horses.[/QUOTE]

You know, I wouldn’t judge if the owners of horses who had made money retired them into a field for a year and then if they never came sound again, euthanized them. Some people might not like that but it’s better than what often happens now for low level horses who aren’t actually sound, which is either death at the track or a long trip somewhere not very fun.

[Appsolute]

Kinda off topic - sorta on…

Canter listings etc - often when there is a little jog video (of a still racing) horse, people will comment that you can expect the horse to look better once let down - because right now it is stiff and sore from the racing lifestyle.

Makes me scratch my head - stiff and sore shouldn’t pass an FEI jog, why is it okay for a horse that will be running a race?

[hundredacres]

I’m just the public, no expert (with 3 retired racehorses): I think the owner had every right to put the horse down. He didn’t send it up the pike, and he didn’t dump him on the public as yet another pasture ornament. The gelding is safer than he would be if he were pushed off on any other option that involved sustaining a horse with a shattered foot. He should have been retired earlier - and we can say that about any horse that breaks down. It shouldn’t have run THAT race. He should’ve been retired. Hindsight and all.

And a stakes winning horse isn’t more deserving of a horse that wasn’t born with the good genes. That really gets under my skin. - because this happens every single day to poor earners and horses who haven’t made it big, and nobody bats an eyelash. What’s that about?

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=Appsolute;7095301]
Kinda off topic - sorta on…

Canter listings etc - often when there is a little jog video (of a still racing) horse, people will comment that you can expect the horse to look better once let down - because right now it is stiff and sore from the racing lifestyle.

Makes me scratch my head - stiff and sore shouldn’t pass an FEI jog, why is it okay for a horse that will be running a race?[/QUOTE]

They’re not stiff. They just aren’t muscled to move with a pretty sweeping trot since that’s not all that important. Some probably are sore or tight depending on what they’d been doing before they jog for the camera, like any athlete who works. And they’re not fat pigs like most show horses (at least in hunters and dressage) which always gets me that people complain about how thin they are. Lucky never looked so good as the day he got off the trailer solid muscle with a tucked-up gut. I’d never seen a race-fit horse close up in person before and I’m just fortunate I got a lazy one who didn’t take advantage of how much stronger he was than anything else on the property.

[Slewdledo]

[QUOTE=danceronice;7095557]
They’re not stiff. They just aren’t muscled to move with a pretty sweeping trot since that’s not all that important. Some probably are sore or tight depending on what they’d been doing before they jog for the camera, like any athlete who works. And they’re not fat pigs like most show horses (at least in hunters and dressage) which always gets me that people complain about how thin they are. Lucky never looked so good as the day he got off the trailer solid muscle with a tucked-up gut. I’d never seen a race-fit horse close up in person before and I’m just fortunate I got a lazy one who didn’t take advantage of how much stronger he was than anything else on the property.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for the hearty laugh (from someone whose race-fit horse was called underweight just this week.)

[Jeito]

I have learned A LOT from this thread. I’ve learned that in the culture of racing what happened to this horse is no big deal. I can understand now why some people are upset about the reaction to this horse’s death and consider the outrage hypocritical. I can’t say that anyone involved with this horse did anything immoral or unethical because what they did is apparently commonplace and acceptable in racing culture. Did I get that right?

But I can also see it from the outsider’s viewpoint. It’s true that a stakes horse shouldn’t be more deserving than a horse that could never run fast in the first place, but that’s not the way the human mind (or social media) works. People would react in a similar way if an Olympic dressage horse ended up at a cheap auction. To someone looking in from the outside, there is something especially tragic and ugly when a racehorse that accomplished so much died in such an undignified way after running in a cheap race.

As for me, I’ve worked first-hand with horses that are off the track. Many retire with serious injuries, multiple old ones and not just the last career-ending one. Many are still detoxing from drugs they are given. Many are jumping out of their skin, not because they love to race so much that they can’t stand being away from the track but because they know nothing else. So that’s my “reality.” Paradoxically, I still love racing, and I wish it could be done in a more dignified way.

[hundredacres]

I don’t think anyone said it’s no big deal. I didn’t read that anyway. What I did read was that it happens every day and it’s part of racing - and that it’s the saddest part of the industry. And from my mostly public perspective, the industry needs a huge overhaul, but nobody inside the industry cares what “others” think and we are quickly shot down because we don’t know anything. So we just keep taking in their cast-offs and re-habbing and re-homing their horses and they treat us like we’re the idiots because we don’t have a clue, so why should we care what happens in Their sport?

I love horse racing and have my whole life (my step dad worked at Santa Anita). But am tired of the way it’s a closed society and anyone without a paid-for dog in the fight has no useful energy to contribute.

ETA: This goes for every discipline with money earning. Not just racing. Outsiders don’t know crap and no one else understands, even other horsemen, if they aren’t in the exact same discipline or career.

[betonbill]

There seem to suddenly be tons of people who are saying that they had this horse on the radar for some time. I wonder how many of these people got around to talking to the owner/trainer or any of the past owners in advance of this race, or who actually offered money or offered to take him in post retirement. That said, what if the owner/trainer had called those somebodies post accident and said, “come and get him.” How many of those somebodies would have been instantly able to come up with the +++ $10,000 (guestimate) the veterinary surgeon would probably have required in advance and then been able to pay far more for recuperation?

I know that if a similar thing had happened to my horse out in the pasture it would have been the end of the road for him.

If people are going to get involved with tracking these old campaigners (and I do think that they all deserve a good retirement if possible), then a lot of the footwork has to be done in advance by everyone, including past owners if they desire. Then perhaps there might be more happy endings. Crucifying someone after the fact probably only makes trainers more resistant to bringing this about for another horse.

[danceronice]

I’m thinking they’re not mad he was put down (what else would you do with him at that point?) but rather that he was racing at all instead of being retired. I doubt many people were really following him that closely but rather jumped on an opportunity to raise a stink (you use horses, some break down, that’s just how it goes, but people get upset-personally I’d rather lose one fast to a breakdown than have to decide it’s too sick or old to be “worth” keeping, but that’s just me). Otherwise there’s no law against calling a trainer and saying “Hey, got any plans for this horse when he’s done?” If he’s really not worth racing you better be ready to say you’ll take him, though…

[Pronzini]

[QUOTE=Discobold;7095591]
I have learned A LOT from this thread. I’ve learned that in the culture of racing what happened to this horse is no big deal. I can understand now why some people are upset about the reaction to this horse’s death and consider the outrage hypocritical. I can’t say that anyone involved with this horse did anything immoral or unethical because what they did is apparently commonplace and acceptable in racing culture. Did I get that right?

But I can also see it from the outsider’s viewpoint. It’s true that a stakes horse shouldn’t be more deserving than a horse that could never run fast in the first place, but that’s not the way the human mind (or social media) works. People would react in a similar way if an Olympic dressage horse ended up at a cheap auction. To someone looking in from the outside, there is something especially tragic and ugly when a racehorse that accomplished so much died in such an undignified way after running in a cheap race.

As for me, I’ve worked first-hand with horses that are off the track. Many retire with serious injuries, multiple old ones and not just the last career-ending one. Many are still detoxing from drugs they are given. Many are jumping out of their skin, not because they love to race so much that they can’t stand being away from the track but because they know nothing else. So that’s my “reality.” Paradoxically, I still love racing, and I wish it could be done in a more dignified way.[/QUOTE]

The thing is, away from the track and its tattoos and databases and daily updates on all of the active runners, horses are disposed of all the time. I boarded a big public stable for almost 20 years that ran the gamut from FEI trainers to trail riders. The BNTs generally had the three years and out rule because they made commissions on the churn and then the horses would drift through other hands. Owners got pregnant, moved away, lost jobs and the horses often just got gone. The cyber version of that is the COTH giveaway forum especially a few years ago before posters started raising stinks at clear dump jobs.

The racing industry is not some evil monolith-its just a little more transparent because the horses are so easily identified.