Monzante: G1 racehorse, winner of >$500k, dies for $4k

[QUOTE=Pronzini;7096325]
The racing industry is not some evil monolith-its just a little more transparent because the horses are so easily identified.[/QUOTE]

See, Pronzini, I don’t use judgmental words like evil. I’m a moral relativist thinking of going back to grad school for a PhD in sociology :slight_smile:

I’ve been around a bit too and have had horses in several countries, including relatively poor Third World countries. I’ve never been anywhere where casually disposing of horses is considered acceptable by the majority of people.

Obviously your experience is different than mine. In my area we don’t have big public stables that run the gamut from FEI trainers to trail riders. We have smaller facilities running the gamut from FEI to just backyard operations, and a lively rumor mill :wink: There are some people who casually dispose of horses as you describe. It’s true other people turn a blind eye, but we all know who they are, and they’re not respected. My trainer is an FEI trainer, and I have friends who are FEI trainers. None of them practices your “three years and out” rule. Fwiw.

I think our perspectives our formed by our experience, and we probably seek people who share our values. So I am not questioning your “reality,” but it isn’t the same as mine. My 25 y/o former hunter is retired at a barn where there is also a 24 y/o racehorse that was retired 16 years ago by an owner who doesn’t ride but has been caring for the horse all this time for the simple reason that, as he told me, “The horse won a lot of money for me, and I owe him.” There is also a 7 y/o mare at the barn that was rescued by the current owner and retired when she couldn’t stay sound. The other retiree besides my horse is a 19 y/o former eventer. When I was looking for a place to retire my mare, I visited several facilities in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, and came across lots of situations like that. So there really are people who do not casually dispose of their horses, whether you’ve met them or not.

[QUOTE=Pronzini;7096325]

The racing industry is not some evil monolith-its just a little more transparent because the horses are so easily identified.[/QUOTE]

Not to mention parimutuel wagering mean bad actors are more likely to get caught because compared to shows, they’re regulated out the wazoo. Just saw another trainer in DRF get a suspension and fine for drug violations.

And how is a horse running in claiming rank (at an “old” age still in the single digits) worse/horrible compared to a show horse in his teens getting injected joints so he can keep going over lower and lower fences in less-competitive events and getting passed from owner to owner? If they’ve been showing 10+ years and need meds to stay comfortable, haven’t they “earned” a retirement with vet care just to say comfortable for that, not to try and keep them packing just one more kid over one more course?

[QUOTE=NCRider;7095057]
I will confess to finding it more sad when it’s a horse that has actually earned enough money to merit retirement. Most horses are large money pits, but some of them have won their owners more money than they cost. When those horses have a sad and painful end in low level claimers, it bothers me more because it’s a direct result of multiple people not giving a flying $%*%. It’s not about economics. And that makes me feel bad about loving the sport.

It’s a game of hot potato and no one wants to be left holding the potato. Sometimes I wonder, if I really knew how unsound your average track horse is as they fall down the levels, would I still be able to justify to myself continuing to follow the sport.[/QUOTE]

Remember, most of those horses that pay their bills are also paying the bills for the less successful members of their barns. My friend had one a couple of years ago that was $250k one year, mainly in claiming races and a few statebred stakes. Sounds like a great year but my friend had her small outfit barely eke out a profit because only one other in her stable of about 6 or 7 horses earned more than they cost in annual expenses. Someone might look at the nice horse as having “earned a safe retirement” but his earnings with her didn’t go into “profit” or his retirement but into feeding the rest of the crew. In this case, the horse was claimed away but she was able to reclaim him and she did retire him (sound) and he is now the apple of a teenaged girls eye.

[QUOTE=danceronice;7096561]
d how is a horse running in claiming rank (at an “old” age still in the single digits) worse/horrible compared to a show horse in his teens getting injected joints so he can keep going over lower and lower fences in less-competitive events and getting passed from owner to owner? If they’ve been showing 10+ years and need meds to stay comfortable, haven’t they “earned” a retirement with vet care just to say comfortable for that, not to try and keep them packing just one more kid over one more course?[/QUOTE]

Its really a very simple concept- the race horse is at real risk of a crippling injury or death every time it runs. The dressage horse, hunter, endurance horse, etc. is not.
Its difficult for me to understand how someone could fail to grasp that concept.
I think that most people who read this forum enjoy horse racing. I know I do-its been a part of my life since i was a kid. I love Tbs. But as a person who loves horses, the breakdowns are very upsetting. danceronice, you seem to be very thick-skinned and that is not necessarily a bad thing, but realize that a lot of people have more compassion for animals than you do, which isnt bad either.

[QUOTE=saratoga;7097139]
Its really a very simple concept- the race horse is at real risk of a crippling injury or death every time it runs. The dressage horse, hunter, endurance horse, etc. is not.
Its difficult for me to understand how someone could fail to grasp that concept.
I think that most people who read this forum enjoy horse racing. I know I do-its been a part of my life since i was a kid. I love Tbs. But as a person who loves horses, the breakdowns are very upsetting. danceronice, you seem to be very thick-skinned and that is not necessarily a bad thing, but realize that a lot of people have more compassion for animals than you do, which isnt bad either.[/QUOTE]

Really? I’ll believe that when they stop needing joint “maintenance” and when we know each and every drug a horse is getting at shows, there are no eventing fatalities, and all those elderly horses who’ve ‘earned their retirement’ are out in a field no later than age twelve because clearly that’s just ancient. I don’t know what kind of racehorses you’re watching or handling, but here’s the thing: they don’t all have horrible injuries or retire because they’re injured (Lucky ran 64 times and all he has to show for it is some minor arthritis, with no long layoffs, no injuries, and he’s not unusual, let alone unique), the overwhelming majority run each race and come out fine every day on tracks across the country, they do not all need to “detox”, they know a lot more than “walk” and “run”…and at least running is something they evolved to do, unlike leaping over big obstacles with a heavy weight on their back (heavier than most racehorses ever carry, anyway) with all their body weight slamming onto their front legs which were not meant to take that kind of strain. Seriously, racing is bad because it causes wear and tear, and we have how many threads in every discipline forum about this or that lameness, unsoundness, NQR-ness of horses who never set foot on a racetrack? PPEs with x-rays out the wazoo and people acting surprised that a horse that’s been asked to work for years, no matter what it’s doing, isn’t blemish-free?

Just letting a horse out in a field puts it at risk of catastrophic injury and death. They’re horses. They break easy and they’re prone to doing self-destructive thing to boot. What people really dislike about racing is unlike chasing pretty ribbons, it’s honest about the money involved. Horses in claimers have a price tag anyone can see. Racing exists pretty much solely because of gambling. The everyday levels where the “working-class” operators are is out in the open-that’s where the action is most days and what most horseplayers follow. All aspects of horses involve business unless you’re purely a backyard home owner who doesn’t lesson or show (and that’s not bad, I’m one of those) but racing is open about it-there’s no pretending you’re asking a ‘question’ rather than putting a horse to a task and getting him to do it, being coy about pricing, or pretending that a trainer is a guru or a buddy rather than someone who makes a living training horses and the best ones get the most clients and money because the clients want to win, not for some noble artistic purpose, or that at the end of the day all sport horses are being used to gain something. Racing is up front that it’s about winning and money and I think that really bothers the Black Beauty & Friends set who want to kid themselves about it. It’s easier to convince yourself that claimers are being “dumped” because there’s a tag right there than to admit that the horse at the BNT’s barn who couldn’t ribbon reliably any more got sold down to a not-so-fancy home to “keep teaching” was really sold off because it wasn’t winning at the level the owner and trainer wanted any more. Or the pony needs a ‘new little girl’, not that the old one lost interest or outgrew it and now they don’t want the feed bill. Or the twentysomething on CL is REALLY good for “4-H, barrels, anything!” rather than “we used it and now it can’t do what we want so please, someone buy it so we can stop paying for it.” Dropping through conditions is an open statement saying “This horse is capable of this level right now and we now would move him on if someone’s interested.” Finding racing horrifying because horses might get hurt and because there are races openly about selling on horses isn’t being compassionate about animals. It’s being in denial that any time you ask a horse to carry a human around you’re risking it getting injured and that any aspect of the horse business comes down to value for money.

Tracks keep All the stats & facts. … including the avg deaths at.22 per 1000 Much less than construction workers, auto drivers and airline passengers

Pronzini, I never said - nor do I believe - that the racing industry is an “evil monolith.” I wouldn’t use such a phrase - it’s so cliche. I really don’t appreciate it when someone distorts my words :frowning:

Pronzini, I never said - nor do I believe - that the racing industry is an “evil monolith.” For one thing, I wouldn’t use such a clichéd phrase. The racing industry is very diverse. I think just about everybody knows that. And I made it clear that I don’t believe what happened to this horse is necessarily immoral or unethical. I really don’t appreciate it when someone distorts my words :frowning:

I do think this horse’s death provides an opportunity for an honest dialogue, if people are willing to listen to each other.

[QUOTE=brightskyfarm;7097451]
Tracks keep All the stats & facts. … including the avg deaths at.22 per 1000 Much less than construction workers, auto drivers and airline passengers[/QUOTE]

Hesitant to get involved in this because both sides are making really dumb and misinformed arguments, but the above can’t go unchallenged.

The racehorse fatality rate is approx 2/1000, that’s per 1000 STARTS.
If auto drivers were dying at a rate of 2/1000 for every car journey, automobiles would have been outlawed decades ago.

If Airline passengers were dying at a rate of 2 people per 1000 journeys taken, airplanes would have been consigned to the dustbin of history a long time ago. The odds of being killed on a single airplane fight are 1 in 30million. The odds a horse will die every time it leaves the starting gate are 1/500.

As to construction workers, how to you compare that to a racehorse fatalities? What unit/task do you use to compare it a “start”?

Or to put the figures another way, if ten horses make a field, a horse will die every fifty races.

You could look at it that way, but 10 horses fields are getting rarer and rarer in US racing. The average field size these days is 7.8 horses. So every 64 odd races you should expect a horse to suffer a fatal injury.

Drvm, do you know the comparable figures from other racing jurisdictions?

BHA says 0.6/1000 for flat racing (and a whopping 4/1000 for jump racing).
Australia is oft quoted as 0.44/1000, though the AW/synth rate is reportedly higher than the pure turf rate.
HK is 0.58/1000, haven’t see the break out for Turf versus AW, but I’ve seen it mentioned several times that the AW rate is twice that of the Turf in HK, so the turf rate must be in the 0.3 to 0.4 range.
The overall rate for the US is 2/1000, the breakout for the US is dirt 2.16/1000, turf 1.76/1000, AW 1.5/1000.

Turf racing in general is the safest, with the exception of US turf racing, where there is a penchant for very firm turf courses.