"More Humane" Bitless?

[SwampYankee]

A 6 yr old Tennessee Walking trail horse I’m schooling, quiet and mannerly u/s, was started originally at 3 in a “Dr. Cook’s Bitless” bridle and has been in it since. This is a very tight, very low (think “crank”) noseband through which 2 crossed straps run and connect to the reins. The mfr. claims it operates by considerable poll pressure and “pushes,” rather than “pulls,” the head in the direction you want the horse to go. I cannot imagine that this rig can be comfortable to wear if only that the horse’s jaws are being compressed shut.

Now the person who sold him to me was really dug-in adamant that this is a “more humane” way to ride than bitted; and I’ll admit that on the trail most of the time it’s adequate.

Except: If he gets tense, up goes the head, control = zero.
Also, can’t get him to gait consistently off his hind end; instead, he’ll get hollow and rush. I can’t get him to stay in any kind of a “frame” in this thing, so I’m switching him over very gently.

The manufacturer of this bridle (which I consider a “gadget,” but I’ve got a strong classical bias) makes some very strong claims, and seems to back them with veterinary evidence, that a bit in the mouth manufactures tension and even a fight-or-flight response whereas his Bitless bridle does not.

As of now my youngster is responding pleasantly, in a workmanlike manner, to a mullen-mouth TWH Imus training bit. Is there any reason any one knows of NOT to switch him to working bitted? Would love to hear your experiences!

[katarine]

I don’t care for Imus products due to their ability to fall apart in your hands but I would certainly suggest a loose ring snaffle. You need the tools to talk to him, and he if gets strung out and pacey, to set him back over his hocks and get his BUTT in gear.

Dr Cooks are not all that and a bag of chips.

This girl came from a barrel horse and western background. These young horses get hours of dog walking and work on using their bodies correctly. In a plain loose ring snaffle.

http://youtu.be/W5oB1qV7lWI
If they don’t know the goal is to reach from behind and pull, you can’t achieve your goals…

http://youtu.be/Q84bLINGwFM

[hundredacres]

I have a mare that has an old jaw injury and I tried the Dr. C’s and it was good for about 3 rides then she decided she hated it (and it’s not designed to work right!). I’m still trying to find just the right bit for her (getting closer!) but I agree with katarine…I’d go with a comfortable bit.

Or, you can start him over in a side pull, then add a bit…every horse is so different, you’ll just have to find what works best.

[merrygoround]

Read Hillary Clayton on Bitless Bridles

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=19877

[SwampYankee]

[QUOTE=katarine;6300117]
I don’t care for Imus products due to their ability to fall apart in your hands but I would certainly suggest a loose ring snaffle. You need the tools to talk to him, and he if gets strung out and pacey, to set him back over his hocks and get his BUTT in gear.

Dr Cooks are not all that and a bag of chips.

This girl came from a barrel horse and western background. These young horses get hours of dog walking and work on using their bodies correctly. In a plain loose ring snaffle.

http://youtu.be/W5oB1qV7lWI
If they don’t know the goal is to reach from behind and pull, you can’t achieve your goals…

http://youtu.be/Q84bLINGwFM[/QUOTE]

Hi! I see by the vids you really know your Walkers! I’m trying the Imus only because I’m so gun-shy of the “nutcracker” effect of a regular snaffle; but among my million bits I also have a very nice Western sweet-iron loose-ring with a curved mouthpiece and copper inlays, a Baucher french-link and a Myler “comfort mouth” Tom Thumb . . .

Bottom line, he’s special and I don’t want to screw it up!

Glad we both see the same thing with the Dr. Cook–it’s not a refined, educated feel for him or me.

[SwampYankee]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;6300167]
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=19877[/QUOTE]

Thank you for this–very interesting. Pretty much confirms what I was thinking about the Bitless; I’d much rather get rid of this thing and get him properly relaxed in balance.

That said, the Dr. Cook does work nicely on some of the old guys who’ve been abused by bad hands.

[candysgirl]

You just have to find what works for each horse. Mine hates a Dr. Cooks, but loves his sidepull from Running Bear: http://store.runningbear.com/catalog/display.php?cartid=4fa8587baea54&zid=1&lid=1&cat=37&scat=284

I like it because it has a place for bit hangers so I can take the bit off mid ride (I can reach my ponies face without dismounting) if I want to start out with one.

A friend of mine really likes S-hacks for riding bitless: http://store.runningbear.com/catalog/display.php?cartid=4fa8587baea54&zid=1&lid=1&cat=36&scat=280

My Arab will go “on the bit” in either of those options, but Dr Cooks bridles just make him fling his head around. My friend’s mare

There’s nothing wrong with riding in a comfortable, mild bit either. I ride in a French link snaffle in some situations too. I’m not a big fan of trail riding in anything with shanks, but that’s just my preference.

[katyb]

I ride in a riding halter, with a rolled nose (pretty much just a rope halter). I have friends who love the Dr. Cook’s, but I’ve heard it’s hard to adjust correctly. My horse is happier without a bit, and plenty responsive. I don’t have anything against bits; two of my four go fine either way (but are generally ridden in the riding halters, because it’s easier for US), one prefers a bit, and one is happiest without.

[chicamux]

I know nothing about gaited horses but after riding for 50 years I have come to really like many of the Myler mouth pieces. The small diameter swivel joints are much more comfortable for the horse and the curves are more anatomically correct.

I do frequently use a short shanked “English” style hackamore with a nice wide, flat english curb chain. I began with the Little S hackamores but the design puts the curb chain higher on the boney area of the jaw bones. I was lucky enough to find a quality made brand of hackamore shanks and bought three sets. My endurance horses liked the bitless comfort out on the trails and I like the additional control when a horse is fresh and strong. Not so good on a very low headed horse as the hackamore will drop the head even lower so they get onto the forehand. For trail riding the hackamores are great.

Bonnie

[BarbeyGirl]

I like the Indian bosal from Crazy Ropes for endurance, though I’m not opposed to using a bit during more excitable moments such as the start (or the finish on a really fit horse). :winkgrin: http://www.crazyropes.com/Halter-Bosal-Combo-Bitless-Bridle-HBC.htm

The Indian bosal is more than a sidepull but less than a Dr. Cooks, which my horses dislike – and note that the Dr. C’s tight noseband prevents snacking along the trail. :no:

[Guilherme]

Recently I attended a competition and couple of the competitors rode “bitless.” They were rather loud in their assertions of how well the horses went, how much they “liked” their rigs, and how well controlled they were.

On the prepared trail and in an arena they were no better than OK. At no time was there any “challenge” to rider in the form of a major distraction, “booger,” etc.

But when the time came to complete an obsticle course the limitations of the rig became painfully clear. When precision of movement was required, it wasn’t there. This was clear during backing and a precision stop.

Watching them try and open and close a gate was high quality entertainment. They simply could not communicate adequately to their horse what they wanted.

Their attempt to “pole bend” was almost as funny.

Neither could/would attempt a canter around some barrels.

It’s tough to get a horse that’s “stargazing” over an 18" jump.

Perhaps better training/practice might have helped, but I’m not so sure.

The idea that a bit is “cruel” is a marketing ploy. There is no evidence to support that idea at all. Dr. Clayton’s comments about bitless bridles is, at least, based upon analysis and observation.

Each horse owner gets to use what they want. But assertions of effectiveness that fly in the face of physics, equine biomechanics, and simple observations should be challenged as “Night Soil, Bovine, Male.”

G.

[BarbeyGirl]

I must agree with Guilherme that bitless options aren’t the amazing, fine-tuned, horse-language-speaking communication devices that some purveyors claim. I use them for comfort and convenience on the endurance trail, on horses that I trust to respond to them. I’ve ridden hundreds of competition miles like this and never had an incident that I think would have been mitigated/avoided through use of a bit.

However, I added a bit the moment my mare got racy and started pushing through the bitless. Use the right tool for this job, this horse, this moment. That’s my motto.

[katyb]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6301485]
Recently I attended a competition and couple of the competitors rode “bitless.” They were rather loud in their assertions of how well the horses went, how much they “liked” their rigs, and how well controlled they were.

On the prepared trail and in an arena they were no better than OK. At no time was there any “challenge” to rider in the form of a major distraction, “booger,” etc.

But when the time came to complete an obsticle course the limitations of the rig became painfully clear. When precision of movement was required, it wasn’t there. This was clear during backing and a precision stop.

Watching them try and open and close a gate was high quality entertainment. They simply could not communicate adequately to their horse what they wanted.

Their attempt to “pole bend” was almost as funny.

Neither could/would attempt a canter around some barrels.

It’s tough to get a horse that’s “stargazing” over an 18" jump.

Perhaps better training/practice might have helped, but I’m not so sure.

The idea that a bit is “cruel” is a marketing ploy. There is no evidence to support that idea at all. Dr. Clayton’s comments about bitless bridles is, at least, based upon analysis and observation.

Each horse owner gets to use what they want. But assertions of effectiveness that fly in the face of physics, equine biomechanics, and simple observations should be challenged as “Night Soil, Bovine, Male.”

G.[/QUOTE]

I don’t dispute your claims, but I can make all of the same observations regarding horses ridden with bits at the last competition I attended. Poor training and communication aren’t the exclusive domain of any particular tack set up.

[katyb]

[QUOTE=Barbey![](irl;6301624]
I must agree with Guilherme that bitless options aren’t the amazing, fine-tuned, horse-language-speaking communication devices that some purveyors claim. I use them for comfort and convenience on the endurance trail, on horses that I trust to respond to them. I’ve ridden hundreds of competition miles like this and never had an incident that I think would have been mitigated/avoided through use of a bit.

However, I added a bit the moment my mare got racy and started pushing through the bitless. Use the right tool for this job, this horse, this moment. That’s my motto. :)[/QUOTE]

That makes sense to me. I get questioned a lot about what type of “horsemanship” I am following, riding bitless. I guess it’s called Jetmanship, because it’s been a matter of trial and error finding what works best with my particular horse, Jet. My only complaint regarding bits is that some horses seem to dislike drinking cold water with a bit in their mouth, which can be a pain on a long ride, but that’s certainly not a huge issue. I like the simplicity of riding bitless, because when we stop, I don’t have to mess with any gear, and my horse isn’t carrying more stuff than necessary on her hot and sweaty face. I have less to keep up with, less to clean, less to carry, but those are just personal preferences, based on laziness mostly.

Here’s what I use:

[IMG]http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i334/jula4me/IMG_7598.jpg)

Jet is very clearly asking why I always choose her to herd the other two around their 30 acres for some daily exercise.

She is very patiently waiting for the other two to catch up, finally.

[IMG]http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i334/jula4me/IMG_7576-1.jpg)

[Daisydoo]

I had the Dr Cooks bitless bridle for my thoroughbred when we went on trail rides and he liked it. I never had a lot of pressure in his mouth (or on his face) anyways as I had taught him to stop or slow down when I just raised my hands an inch, even if there was a loop in the rein.

Later on I started using the bridle on my normally soft mouthed & responsive Paint. He HATED the bridle with a passion! He would fight it & put his whole weight into it. I tried a few different bitless bridles, the LG among others, and he was ok with the latter but he really doesn’t like pressure on his face like that. He goes much better in a regular bitted bridle without a noseband or just a simple halter.
No reason to spend a fortune on different bitless bridles for me.
The original bitless bridle, the cavason, works great, or just a halter.

I often jump him and ride dressage in just a halter by the way.
This works for him since I don’t ride with the “conventional contact” anyway, and I use latteral movements to help him collect himself rather than creating a head set. When we want more precision I use a bit. Works for us & he is happy:)

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=katyb;6301627]
I don’t dispute your claims, but I can make all of the same observations regarding horses ridden with bits at the last competition I attended. Poor training and communication aren’t the exclusive domain of any particular tack set up.[/QUOTE]

The core of my observation is that when they needed effective communication that they did not have, could not establish it, and didn’t know what they didn’t have.

Admittedly this can be scenario in many circumstances. But in this case I don’t think Alois Podhajsky in the irons would have made any difference. The device, itself, is defective. It cannot do the job it’s intended to do.

You can’t hammer a nail with a leather glove. And if you need to hammer a nail then you are in deep kimchi.

G.

[candyappy]

[QUOTE=katyb;6301635]
That ![](akes sense to me. I get questioned a lot about what type of “horsemanship” I am following, riding bitless. I guess it’s called Jetmanship, because it’s been a matter of trial and error finding what works best with my particular horse, Jet. My only complaint regarding bits is that some horses seem to dislike drinking cold water with a bit in their mouth, which can be a pain on a long ride, but that’s certainly not a huge issue. I like the simplicity of riding bitless, because when we stop, I don’t have to mess with any gear, and my horse isn’t carrying more stuff than necessary on her hot and sweaty face. I have less to keep up with, less to clean, less to carry, but those are just personal preferences, based on laziness mostly.

Here’s what I use:

[IMG]http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i334/jula4me/IMG_7598.jpg)

Jet is very clearly asking why I always choose her to herd the other two around their 30 acres for some daily exercise.

She is very patiently waiting for the other two to catch up, finally.

[IMG]http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i334/jula4me/IMG_7576-1.jpg)[/QUOTE]

I think like you do. I always ride my horses in a full cheek snaffle. I have since I started my first horse way back in the late 70’s. It works for me and every horse I have ever had. It didn’t matter what they were ridden in before I acquired them ( if already ridden) I just put them in it and off we went. If I ever would ( do in the future) have a horse who doesn’t like it or is not responsive and safe I will try something else .

Beautiful green fields, I miss the real “mid west”…

[oliverreed]

“Night soil, bovine, male.” :lol:

[katyb]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6301729]
The core of my observation is that when they needed effective communication that they did not have, could not establish it, and didn’t know what they didn’t have.

Admittedly this can be scenario in many circumstances. But in this case I don’t think Alois Podhajsky in the irons would have made any difference. The device, itself, is defective. It cannot do the job it’s intended to do.

You can’t hammer a nail with a leather glove. And if you need to hammer a nail then you are in deep kimchi.

G.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. The types of activities you describe can be done bitless, without any problems if the horse and rider are communicating effectively. I’m not saying a bit isn’t an efficient tool to teach certain things, but the ones you describe certainly shouldn’t require one. Again, people and horses can perform badly with any equipment, or well without any.

[SwampYankee]

Better in Snaffle . . .

So I took the suggestion and tried my boy in a Western sweet-iron ordinary snaffle today; the mouthpice on it has a nice curvature. Not a big fat one, just average. I clipped another set of reins on the noseband just as a “safety” for backup with the nose cues he’s been used to in the Dr. Cook.

Unlike the Imus I tried yesterday, which might have been making him tense, he relaxed so much in this that at one point he was bopping along in a nice big flat walk with little snorts in time with his head-nod, and felt so “gumby” loose I thought he might fall asleep! I mostly used a big, “leading” opening rein like you would for a colt’s first few rides.

I should have put him away then and there to sleep on that, but because we’d only been out there 15 minutes, I asked him to do a little more and was rewarded by having to ride him through a couple of minor temper episodes when he pretty openly defied me trying to get back to his herd in the next field. Had to “cowboy” a little as he wasn’t giving me much choice. Don’t think it was a “bit” issue, more like an “I’m bored and foo on you” issue. Had to do some mild spinneys; proof he can follow his nose, anyway! When he made nice again and walked off I put him away. He may have decided to test this new riggin’ and see what he could get away with–he’s very smart!

I like him much, MUCH better in the snaffle than the Imus; when I got him a little engaged he showed me a bit of what he’s really got and he’s awesome! It was certainly not eliciting tension, apprehension, or hollowness.