More NYRA trouble in NY

And The Belmont is just over 3 weeks away…

How do New York horsemen decide what the next step is?!?

"New York regulators are blasting the New York Racing Association’s board of trustees for appointing a new president to take over for the ousted Charles Hayward, the latest development in the ongoing scandal over pari-mutuel takeout levels. They also raised the possibility that NYRA could lose its operating franchise over the matter.

The officials said the state has ordered, effective immediately, an end to daily payments made by Genting New York, the operator of the Aqueduct Racetrack video lottery terminal casino, to NYRA–with the funds, instead, being diverted to the state lottery agency that oversees racetrack-based casinos.

It wasn’t immediately known how that action would impact purses and operating funds at NYRA tracks. But it does not appear, sources said, VLT proceeds for breeding and purse accounts will be affected by the diversion of funds from NYRA to the lottery agency.

Based on the most recently monthly financial report by the lottery division, NYRA received about $4 million in April for operating and capital expenses from the Aqueduct casino."

Read more: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/69782/regulators-blast-nyra-question-franchise#ixzz1uzDOGRXJ

It couldn’t possibly be any more of a mess legally. As we all recall there was the very ugly long battle between Albany and NYRA on who controls the franchise for the three-main TB tracks. That finally was resolved and then the loooooong awaited slots opened up and it just started to look very bright for NY Racing.

Now this mess tied in with Charlie Hayward’s departure under the cloud of having covered up takeout issues. Not a thing happened to Steve Crist at the DRF however and he remarked:

I personally do not believe Hayward knowingly overcharged his customers, and it never even occurred to me that might be happening. I assure you that I was completely unaware this was going on, and never would have tolerated it or agreed to be silent about it if I had.

Anyhow the named replacement for Charlie as President (Ellen McClain) mixed with the already irritated Cuomo admin over the number of breakdowns at Aqueduct this winter just sealed the deal: Per this letter from the Governor to NYRA the State hereby is suspending the 7% diversion of all casino money that fuels the purses and is reviewing if NYRA will be able to retain the franchise for horse racing at Belmont, Aqueduct, Saratoga. A freaking mess.

Saw that letter shortly after it first came out, and it made me shudder.

All of this stuff together - riding the rails on NYRA, the AG action against TRF, combining racing with the lottery (although he’s done this elsewhere, e.g. combining the banking & insurance depts). I truly believe racing needs some clean up, but I’m worried that the Gov is really going over the edge - that the slots will be permanently earmarked for other recipients, having nothing to do with racing/horses, etc. I think he just hates the whole industry, and I don’t know what will happen to it here. :frowning:

I also think the mood goes hand in hand with his failure to really seem concerned about fracking. He’s not taking any stance on that, other than to “turn it over to Encon”.

I just think he prefers dark grey buildings and millions of people in small spaces, and has no heart/concern/care for anything associated with rural concerns.

And I voted for him. :frowning:
Hope I can be proven wrong!

While it could be the Governor simply trying to put pressure on NYRA to clean up a visible business that unfortunately has had missteps, it could be uglier with motivation by the State looking to take back the franchise rights and gaming money into its coffers.

The 3-points they raise (1) insufficient dormitory housing at Spa; (2) breakdowns at the Big A; (3) personnel appointment with NYRA.

The first point is one where NYRA has very publicly shared its plans to improve Spa. That is been exclusively dependent on the casino revenue which only just now is flowing. So cutting this money off only now makes correcting issue one impossible. With issue two, the breakdowns, these were not due to track issues or failures by NYRA staff in almost all cases. As many articles suggested it often was cheap claimers running for high purses when they were ill-suited.
The objection to the appointment of Ms. McClain, while valid, shouldn’t merit suspending the entire funding of NYRA.

Only the Albany leaders would be foolish as to look at the massive growth in long dormant breeding in-state and the uptick in farm sales and think it must be stopped.

“In only four months time, the breeding industry has seen 500 broodmares enter this state,” said Jeff Cannizzo, New York Thoroughbred Breeders Inc. executive director.

“This is beyond unfortunate to be happening at a time when the thoroughbred breeding and racing industry was starting to skyrocket. People in this community should be scared because politics may ruin their livelihoods. NYRA — or anyone for that matter — must have the contractually arranged VLT (video lottery terminal) revenue to operate its business and do what has been planned for over a decade to revitalize racing. Without it, NYRA or another operator will not be in business. Hence we have no racing.”

And the State moves in to grab the loot … pure thuggery if you ask me ending the private control of NYRA since 1955. Nobody can say NYS will be able to run NYRA with any degree of efficiency … expect more bloated payrolls, corruption, and political favors coming into play.

Times Union May 22, 2012 “Governor, state to have control of scandal-plagued association”

The plan, voted on Tuesday by NYRA directors under pressure from Cuomo, calls for a smaller board of trustees dominated by government appointees who will assure public control of the association for the remainder of Cuomo’s term as governor.

The “turn-around board” will be smaller than the 25-member panel now allowed under NYRA’s current structure. It would be in place for three years and would include seven governor appointees, five private NYRA appointees, two members each from the Senate and Assembly majority conferences and two non-voting ex-officio representatives of the horsemens’ and breeders’ associations, according to an industry official.

The overhaul is tied to the governor’s concerns about NYRA amid a slew of missteps by the operators of Aqueduct, Belmont and Saratoga tracks. Cuomo, after meeting privately with NYRA board members twice this month, demanded state control after NYRA’s recently fired president and general counsel were implicated in a state investigation.

NYRA has the franchise to operate racing through 2033 and is preparing for an internationally marketed Triple Crown race, the Belmont Stakes, in less than three weeks.

As Nick Kling points out in The Troy Record today (5/22) the State already has considerable blame for NYRAs woes.

New York State’s pitiful record when it has turned its attention to matters which involve horse racing.

It took the state ten years between initial approval and ultimate operation of VLTs at Aqueduct. Even if you are charitable and say it could have been done in five years, that means New York taxpayers and the state’s treasury lost more than $1.5 billion in direct revenue. And the reason? Albany was more concerned about which political cronies would benefit and how much lobbyists would be willing to pony up for reelection campaigns.

Blogger Tom Noonan (tenoonan.com), summed up this episode well. He wrote, “(The delay was caused by) what can only be described - at best - as gross incompetence by the most powerful public officials in the state.”

There is a legitimate argument that NYRA has institutional problems which need to be changed. It has repeatedly made mistakes a novice business person would not, then compounded those mistakes by repeating them.

Nevertheless, the notion the Governor, the state legislature, and a host of state agencies can do a better job, is a tenuous assertion. At best the result might be similar. A more likely outcome is racing becomes infected with the same ailment which has resulted in New York State government being called the most dysfunctional in America.

After the 3 years, it is supposed to go back to “private” control? :rolleyes:

I apologize in advance if some of this below is redundant. No time to cut and paste…

My biggest concern is who will be appointed - who will have their hands in the cookie jar? Be it politician, or private appointee, there are those within this industry whose CV needs to be vetted. :sigh:

http://hudsonvalley.ynn.com/content/top_stories/585201/state-leaders-announce-deal-aimed-at-transforming-nyra/

State leaders announce deal aimed at transforming NYRA
By: Web Staff
ALBANY, N.Y. – Governor Andrew Cuomo along with the state’s legislative leaders have announced a deal to begin serious reform of the troubled New York Racing Association.

The plan calls for a 16-person advisory board, made up of seven appointees from the governor, five from NYRA and two each from the GOP-led State Senate and the Democratic-led State Assembly.

The board will be in effect for the next three years to restructure and reorganize the not-for-profit corporation. At the end of three years it will go back to majority private control.

The announcement comes as NYRA deals with allegations it withheld an estimated $8.5 million in winnings from bettors.

NYRA’s two top officials were fired and an investigation is underway.

The corporation has been in control of racing at Aqueduct, Belmont and Saratoga racetracks since 1955.

The governor has also expressed a desire to consolidate all of the state’s gaming including racing, casinos and the lottery, under one authority.

NEWS RELEASE:
For Immediate Release: May 22, 2012

GOVERNOR CUOMO, LEGISLATIVE LEADERS, AND NYRA ANNOUNCE AGREEMENT TO ESTABLISH NYRA REORGANIZATION BOARD TO TRANSFORM NYRA

Public Control for 3 Year Period to Improve Horse Racing in New York State

New Board to Conduct National Search for Executive Leadership

Governor Andrew M. Cuomo, Senate Majority Leader Dean Skelos, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, and the New York Racing Association (NYRA) today announced an agreement to establish the NYRA Reorganization Board that will place NYRA under temporary public control in order to reform the association and transform oversight and management of horse racing in New York State.

“As the upcoming Belmont Stakes shows, the racing industry is a vital part of New York State’s culture and economy, attracting millions of dollars in tourism revenue from across the nation and supporting thousands of jobs,” Governor Cuomo said. “With the structure of the gaming industry changing here in New York, the state also needs to take a new approach to how it manages and governs racing. New Yorkers can be assured that the NYRA Reorganization Board will act in the interests of the members of the public who enjoy horse racing, the taxpayers who support it, and the horses themselves, to make racing in our state the strongest, safest and most enjoyable in the country.”

Senate Majority Leader Dean Skelos said, “The NYRA Reorganization Board will put in place new leadership to ensure that bettors and taxpayers are treated fairly and honestly. We will continue working together with the Governor and NYRA so New York State remains a leading home for horse racing.”

Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver said, “New York’s horse racing industry supports jobs and local economies all across the state. It is important to maintain the integrity of the sport so that those who come out to enjoy these events are not shortchanged or treated unfairly. By working together with the NYRA leadership and the Governor, we will make sure that racing in New York State continues to be a leading economic driver and tourist attraction that is enjoyed by people from across the nation each year.”

NYRA Board Chair Steven Duncker said, “I want to express my appreciation to the Governor for his commitment to a world class horse racing industry in New York. The NYRA Reorganization Board will help ensure that racing in New York has a strong and stable future as the gaming and racing industry evolves. I thank the members of the current NYRA Board for supporting the changes announced today and together we will work to ensure a smooth transition and bright future for New York racing.”

NYRA Board Member John Hendrickson said, “The bettors, fans, public, and government deserve trust in their racing. This resolution is a necessary first step. I am encouraged that racing will now receive enthusiastic commitments from Albany. Governor Cuomo is to be commended for his vocal support of racing, and for bringing all parties together for a positive resolution.”

Barry Ostrager, President of the New York Thoroughbred Breeders, said “It is a great comfort to the New York thoroughbred breeders to know that Governor Cuomo has reaffirmed the State’s commitment to support the New York breeding program and to protect and expand the number of jobs that have recently been created by our revivified industry.”

NYRA Board Member and New York Thoroughbred Horsemen’s Association President Rick Violette Jr. said,“The New York Racing Association today announced the reconfiguration of their Board of Directors. We are excited we have a Governor who has announced he will champion our industry. New York’s Thoroughbred horsemen are willing to work hand in hand with the new Board and the Governor’s office to ensure we have a robust industry that continues to provide the very best racing in the country.”

The NYRA Reorganization Board will be comprised of a majority of publicly appointed directors, with a Chair nominated by the Governor. The Board will be in effect for 3 years to restructure and reorganize NYRA, following which NYRA will revert back to majority private control. The current NYRA Board will be dissolved. The NYRA Reorganization Board will go into effect when a majority of the new public directors are appointed. Once appointed, the new board will conduct a national search for a new CEO and General Counsel for NYRA.

The NYRA Reorganization Board will consist of 17 directors. Seven will be appointed by the Governor. The Senate and Assembly will appoint two directors each and five directors will be selected by the current NYRA Board. Breeders and Horsemen will each have an ex officio member. Additionally, a chairperson will be nominated by the Governor subject to Board approval. The current board is 25 directors, with 14 elected by NYRA and 11 appointed by public officials.

The agreement will require legislation to implement which both leaders have agreed to support.

NYRA is a not-for-profit corporation that is responsible for the operation of the three largest horse-racing tracks in New York: Aqueduct Racetrack in South Ozone Park, Queens; Belmont Park in Elmont, Long Island; and Saratoga Race Course in Saratoga Springs.

Well taken comments from Bill Finley in regards to the State Government take-over: (5/31/12) “New NYRA can’t be another OTB”

… These should be the best of times for the New York Racing Association, but they are anything but. A recent scandal over overcharging bettors cost two top NYRA executives their jobs and led New York Governor Andrew Cuomo to wage a bloodless coup. Sometime after the Belmont, a new NYRA will begin to take shape, one that will take its orders from a CEO/President and a Board of Directors largely handpicked by Cuomo himself.

That a government, any government, is going to have such a huge say in the future of New York racing has a lot of people nervous, and it should. This is, after all, the state that was home to the biggest debacle in horse racing history: the government run New York City OTB Corporation.

The sole reason OTB was such a colossal failure was because of the people who were chosen to run it. Its executives were not picked for their business acumen, their knowledge of racing or because of past success in some other endeavor. They were picked because of whom they knew.

That they may have been incompetent did not disqualify them from the job. OTB existed not to make profits but because it was a convenient dumping ground for the politically connected who had no particular skills of any kind.

Cuomo wasn’t governor when New York City OTB closed its doors, but he certainly knows all about its history. If not, he can ask his father, former New York Governor Mario Cuomo. In 1993, the elder Cuomo made an attempt to reel OTB in and have it privatized, but even he couldn’t untangle the mess.

Hopefully, Andrew Cuomo understands that New York racing is too important to the state to be treated like another OTB or the Department of Motor Vehicles. He can find some political hacks to run the place, and they will surely run it into the ground.

Or he can find the type of driven, bright people needed to lead NYRA into the future. He can start by seeing to it that as the Board of Trustees includes many racing insiders. It has to have people who are knowledgeable about the sport and have racing’s best interests in mind.

commentary continues

Started to respond on the thread about the nasal strips, but these thoughts more relevant here…

Agree they appear innocuous and regulating them is absurd, but also agree the horse should be able to win with or without them.

However, what is driving me batty is the disconnect that everyone has run up against in this state. That those in the state who are so eager to control things, have absolutely no idea about care/feeding/training of racehorses, or basic knowledge of just horses!

I keep hearing “those guys in Albany” when among the swells downstate, or reading communication from those around the tracks on LI.

Well, the disconnect is those guys in Albany happen to be mostly “guys from NYC” who haven’t a clue. Complainers point up river to fantasy decision making chambers, when instead its all done within a few miles from where they stand.

Have seen/known/overseen/observed business transactions for real estate buyers/racing partners/board members all easily stepping into racing as if it’s something one buys at a department store - that they should be able to invest in, be able to see their names in, get status from. And the subsequent entity they’re involved in goes right down the drain, along with their bank accounts, or the status of racing - with their lack of knowledge, and failure to use good horsemen for decision making. They may walk around Aqueduct/Belmont, study the form, chat with a trainer or two to get “the feel of things”, but until they’ve picked up a pitchfork, soaked a leg, bought hay, or walked a colicky horse, they’ll never “get it”.

NYRA/NYRWB - if you want honesty/knowledge in racing, stop looking down the streets of Manhattan for your policy makers, and look Upstate at those with dirt under their fingernails. And by the way, many of them can also read a law book. There are some who can do both!!

Better to park this under the NYRA-NYS thread than Saratoga. All the red flashing warning lights should be going off that racing in NY is about to get get mugged by the State and the horsemen and racing fans will be the losers.

DRF/Washington Post Aug 27, 2012: “Cuomo’s unwanted takeover”

Yet at Saratoga this summer you will hear little optimistic talk about the future — not when the equivalent of a nuclear bomb is about to drop. Gov. Andrew Cuomo is set to take control of the New York Racing Association by reconstituting its board of directors and packing it with political appointees. The New York Post’s statehouse correspondent Fredric Dicker — whose sources are considered authoritative — wrote that Cuomo would fire NYRA’s CEO Ellen McClain “as soon as the meet ends on Sept. 3.” Almost everyone expects that Cuomo will take for the state some or all of the slot-machine revenue that has been earmarked for horse racing.

NYRA operates the most successful race meeting in America, though its critics will rarely give it credit for that achievement. At Saratoga it has managed to accommodate big crowds while retaining the charm that makes the Spa a must-see destination for racing fans throughout the country.

NYRA did things that the politicians would never notice but that core fans recognized and appreciated: Its in-house television presentation is the most informative in the industry. Its Web site is packed with useful information. It changed the rules governing the Pick Six and Pick Four to protect bettors when races were shifted from turf to dirt.

The governor is a staunch supporter of the casino industry, which can generate significant revenue for the state, not to mention large political contributions. Because of the law giving racetracks a subsidy from slot-machine funds, horse racing siphons away money that politicians want for their own aims. Cuomo sought to take control by changing the composition of the NYRA board, reducing it to 17 members, eight of whom will be appointed by the governor and two each by the Senate and Assembly.

More indepth detail:

Tom Noonan 8-22-12: "The fix is in for New York to cut purses

In early July, the Franchise Oversight Board, chaired by Cuomo’s Budget Director, and on which his Lottery Director also serves, decided that “NYRA must establish a long-term financial goal to end its reliance on VLT subsidies and immediately develop plans on how it will meet this goal.” Later in the month, the State Comptroller issued a report questioning whether the VLT revenues going to racetracks “are having their intended effect.” The Lottery Director, who is responsible for administering the VLT payments, “shared” the Comptroller’s concerns and then added his own anecdotal perspective supporting the Comptroller’s conclusions about the “effectiveness of the horse racing subsidies.”

I hope folks are enjoying this great Saratoga meet as the 2013 edition easily may have much smaller purses as the State decides racing is too reliant on VLT money (despite being fully entitled to it) and should learn how to adapt without it. To those who have no interest in racing I’m sure Andy can pitch that the diverted evil sin monies of degenerate gamblers can instead help build out yet another school in some one horse town nobody has ever heard of …

I’ve been on the cusp of starting a partnership for some time now. But I also am very worried about NYS, particularly after seeing what’s going on in Ontario - today, see http://www.thestar.com/sports/horseracing/article/1250221--13-000-horses-could-be-destroyed-in-2013-if-ontario-horse-racing-industry-collapses
…and just by observing people on the ground in racing in NYS - the good and the bad.

I know TB breeders, and lovers, and racing nuts - several who have come upstate to make their fortune in TB breeding and ownership, as late as this year. I believe because the purses have gone up, that the breeding numbers may have headed back up this year as well. I wonder when the rug will be pulled out from under. And considering Cuomo’s failure to respond to the citizens of NY when it comes to the fracking controversy, & his lack of care of rural NY, I don’t see any inkling of his to respond kindly to TB racing, especially based on his maneuvers this year. And I’m of his party…

I know some very good people in the industry, but have also seen some who mean well, but really don’t know what they’re doing. My background has also been in real estate, and I’ve seen so many farms change hands when they don’t. And wonder what happened to the horses who didn’t either. Believe the changing hands for typical reasons will be mild compared to what can ultimately happen down the road.

Hate to be the naysayer of doom, but also wondered when real estate was going to stop climbing to the moon…

And Saratoga is still The August Place To Be!

So here it is beginning to be discussed - again kind of like fracking. A poke here and there, slow moving, but maybe it will come to the forefront. However, there’s a big difference here. Real time funds appearing now. A bad boy industry that despite its beauty and appeal, of course is easily colored as against what is “best for us”. And something that may very well happen soon.

But what contingency plans will the governor make? Over 300 TB farms in NYS, and with that staff, and those in supporting businesses, how many will be affected or lose their livelihoods? I am in the boonies - Vermont has taken the lead and provides high speed internet to all its constituents. I live on a busy road 11 miles from Cooperstown, with much regular traffic, but no lines for the houses here, not a plan in site, and the current infrastructure is disintegrating.

Believe me, the powers that be, are looking out for those in NYC, and must answer to the masses, and it doesn’t really include a large percentage of racing fans. But am sure, Glimmerglass, that they, too, must see the writing on the wall…:frowning:

60 Minutes is on just now. I’d love to see them attack this, with a picture of the Gov, and horses being euthanized. Perhaps that would wake someone up, and have them find some kind of compromise - although heaven knows, that’s not how politicians work these days.

As an afterthought, I do have to disagree w/ Andy about how things changed at Saratoga. He said to support the wealthy?!? I used to be able to get great seats in the clubhouse during the public lottery in the 80’s and 90’s, showing up at the Saratoga PO on Dec 31st :cool:. Now the same sections I used to get are offered to the high spending gamblers who are drawn ahead of the public. Those seats available at regular rates are now quite a bit farther down the track.

The people have certainly changed as well. More kids, which would be fine if polite, but I wouldn’t bring mine considering the language that you hear incessantly from rude adults. And the accompanying entourage, even in boxes, often don’t know enough to sit down when the gate is opened. Have often thought of bringing a pea shooter for the ding-dongs without a clue, who decide to stand and wave to make sure they’re “seen”, just as they’re coming down the stretch…:rolleyes:

That’s why I don’t go as often. Er, that and HRTV. :wink:

And here you go with a preview … NY Post 9-24-12: “Gov’s ‘bettor’ way: Plan to kill NYRA and privatize horse racing”

Cuomo, who will sign legislation within days giving the state control of NYRA’s board of directors, plans to seek public bids for a new operator to replace NYRA, a not-for-profit corporation, from for-profit companies with deep experience in the racing and/or entertainment industries, sources said.

"The NYRA model won’t work. It’s flawed, and it’s unable to do the job. Privatizing makes the most sense,’’ said the source.

The Post reported in July that current NYRA President/CEO Ellen McClain would be fired after the governor signed the legislation taking control of the racing association. A source said McClain’s dismissal would likely occur early next month.

If anyone thinks this will be in the interest of the employees, trainers, owners, the horses or fans you’re daft. To buy the franchise will be that entity will take on a tremendous amount of debt or plow in a large fortune. That means every allocated dollar spent henceforth by the new owners will have to either make them money or be cut. Upgrade Saratoga? Only if it yields a profit. Boost purses? Why would they have to do that? They’ll slide back from where they are now. Give to the backstretch charity organizations? Why do that unless they are mandated.

The first step accomplished by the Cuomo admin in regard to racing safety, is to encourage jockeys to anonymously report horses in less than racing condition…

It only refers to jockeys. Why not exercise riders?

More to follow with announcements later today.

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Horse-deaths-prompt-racing-changes-3902130.php

A more comprehensive article from the NYTimes, describing changes in veterinary control and authorization, along with a new position of a state equine medical director…

still reading…

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/28/sports/aqueduct-racing-officials-faulted-in-horse-deaths.html?ref=sports

Here’s the 200+ page report.
Have to say, am impressed with the thoughtful approach, and seriousness put into this effort.

Been worried about the Gov’s ultimate intentions with regard to NYRA, and racing - frankly wondered if he cared if racing left NY - as improbable as that sounds.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/107617058/Report

Steve Crist’s article on both the rumblings of privatizing NYRA as well as the report on the Big A breakdowns is worth a read in its entirety.

Crist/DRF 9-28-12 “Even-handed Aqueduct breakdown report disappoints Chicken Littles”

excerpts

The scariest thing about the story [with privatizing NYRA] is that it was clearly floated by people completely unfamiliar with the recent history of New York racing or the realities of the national racing industry. Churchill Downs Inc. and The Stronach Group, which operates Santa Anita, have no interest in managing the New York tracks and did not bid to own them when the franchise was up for grabs over the past decade. Nor is there any reason to believe that either company would do a better or cheaper job than the highly regulated, not-for-profit New York Racing Association does.

In regards to the report on the rash of breakdowns at Aqueduct:

The authors of the report, however, repeatedly stressed that the shortcomings they found were endemic to racing nationwide and not to New York in particular, and that the structural flaws had been in place for decades and were not the result of recent management decisions.

The authors – three of whom (Alan Foreman, Dr. Scott Palmer, and Dr. Mary Scollay) spoke at length during the press conference – also debunked many of the theories that have been advanced about the breakdowns, particularly by those who believe that various widely accepted therapeutic medications are at the heart of the problem.

Foreman specifically noted that there was no correlation between the the use of phenylbutazone or furosemide (Salix) and the breakdowns, and he rejected the perception that non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medications are inherently dangerous: "These are not, as have been referred to by others, ‘powerful painkillers,’ " a reference to The New York Times’s boilerplate language for them.

He also noted that of 7,106 samples tested from horses competing last winter during the period of increased breakdowns, there was not a single positive for an illegal or prohibited medication, and only five positives for overages of therapeutic drugs.

Nobody is going to be entirely pleased with the report: the state did not get its desired red meat on NYRA’s supposed transgressions; NYRA may find some of the recommendations overly critical; and some horsemen will grumble about increased record-keeping and intrusiveness. That’s a pretty good sign that the report was indeed independent of undue political influence and probably makes sense.