More talk about air- vests

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;7070362]
Are they planning to evaluate air vest safety?[/QUOTE]

It is an ongoing work given limited funds. It is based on accident reports and subsequent outcomes at this point. If there is sufficient data then subsequent direct testing will be recommended. However, money is the key. Safety equipment manufacturers are voluntarily involved as well but there is no other motivation to conduct investigations/development/research given standards don’t exist and the current standards are insufficient.

[Winding_Down]

I am wondering what the process was for helmets to get research funded. I assume , given how many are sold, that the manufacturers could fund a lot of it.

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;7070508]
I am wondering what the process was for helmets to get research funded. I assume , given how many are sold, that the manufacturers could fund a lot of it.[/QUOTE]

The first thing was the national bodies requiring helmets to be worn and then having those helmets meet a standard of head protection. At this point, the companies HAD to fund research in order to keep their products on the market.

Standards for head protection are relatively simple as you only need to protect a single organ. Vest standards are horrible as no tissue responds the same to the same forces (a person can be jellied by as little as 2-3psi change). This is why there is no standard for military ballistic vests, other than penetration. The same has been applied to our vests.

Again, no motivation to fund research. The effort must come from USEF or the membership and then have the manufacturers come in.

We went over this at the USEA convention with several USEA/USEF officers and companies.

[CindyCRNA]

I am thinking that the best protection comes from an air vest layered over a solid eventing vest. For the money, the most bang for your buck comes from the solid eventing vests but for slightly better protection in a big fall, I am layering an air vest on top. I like the additional sacral protection and the neck roll appears it could help with cervical hyperflexion. I think the air vest only adds a little more protection than a solid vest but every little bit helps. I like the Hit Air because it expands out, not in. Protection wise, they are probably comparable but I think in a deployment, outward sounds a bit more comfortable.

[RacetrackReject]

[QUOTE=Countrywood;7068890]
I would be wearing the airbag vest alone, not over a body protector vest.[/QUOTE]

You cannot wear just an air vest in competition. It must be worn over a regular XC vest.

Aaspen- I would suspect that your EXO is the one that did the most to reduce damage in your fall, yes?

[Aaspen]

During my fall, I was only wearing my airvest (hitair) I was schooling, not in competition. Yes, more protection would be offered if I wore both when schooling, but I know that just isn’t going to happen when it’s 95 degrees out. I haven’t had a fall yet in my EXO, but I do feel like I could be strapped to the hood of a car and ride down the turnpike with no injuries with that thing on!!! It’s a bit ugly, but I do feel like it would offer me protection in the case of a rotational fall. My airvest, not so much.

[Aaspen]

But that being said, I do think my airvest does cover a few areas that my EXO wouldn’t. (Like up around the neck, and down my coccyx)

[poltroon]

The other difference with helmet standards is that helmets are used in a variety of sports, and the money for research has been shared across many more millions of people. Thus, the standard for equestrian was building upon standards that already existed for cycling, etc.

It helps, too, that skulls are not meant to flex.

[deltawave]

the neck roll appears it could help with cervical hyperflexion

Medical research is littered with the dead bodies of subjects in trials where the hypothesis went "it appears this could help with . . . " This is why we need to answer the questions BEFORE these things go to market. The thought of something inflating inward really hard and really fast a half-second after I may have suffered a cervical fracture is terrifying to me. Just another way of looking at it.

[Countrywood]

I don’t compete in eventing, visiting on the air vest topic (I ride dressage and trails) so I would be wearing the air vest with no body protector vest underneath (too hot in Florida for both I couldn’t do it)

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=deltawave;7071973]
Medical research is littered with the dead bodies of subjects in trials where the hypothesis went "it appears this could help with . . . " This is why we need to answer the questions BEFORE these things go to market. The thought of something inflating inward really hard and really fast a half-second after I may have suffered a cervical fracture is terrifying to me. Just another way of looking at it.[/QUOTE]

The vest inflates really fast but remember that you determine how tight it is. So if one is afraid of it being exceedingly uncomfortable when it deploys, then don’t strap it on so tight to begin with.

The only time I had discomfort was when the air vest deployed and I had the old style tie on pinney which restricted it. I was dying to get that pinney untied! With the new plastic pinney holders, this isn’t a problem.

[deltawave]

No, I’m not worried about being uncomfortable. I’m worried about bone fragments being driven into my spinal cord by the force of the thing inflating inward. I can live with a bit of claustrophobia (although that bothers me on another level–the of panic making some other problems worse) but I don’t WANT to live as a C2 quad. Until there is at least SOME evidence that a C-spine fracture couldn’t be made WORSE by wearing a vest, I will not be buying one.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=deltawave;7072616]
No, I’m not worried about beeing uncomfortable. I’m worried about bone fragments being driven into my spinal cord by the force of the thing inflating inward. I can live with a bit of claustrophobia (although that bothers me on another level–the of panic making some other problems worse) but I don’t WANT to live as a C2 quad. Until there is at least SOME evidence that a C-spine fracture couldn’t be made WORSE by wearing a vest, I will not be buying one.[/QUOTE]

Deltawave, I have 100% respect for your opinion and realize why the above is a logical concern. This is why I do not pressure those who decide to not wear the vest. I wear one; you don’t wear one; and all is well.

[deltawave]

Why would you even want to pressure anyone? I wouldn’t wear one based on peer pressure anyway.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=deltawave;7072626]
Why would you even want to pressure anyone? I wouldn’t wear one based on peer pressure anyway. :)[/QUOTE]

For the same reason I pressure people to wear helmets. I hate scraping body parts off the ground. It just ruins my day. :winkgrin:

[deltawave]

So then your level of confidence is higher for helmets than it is for vests, if you feel compelled to pressure people to wear them but not the vests? Then we’re in the same boat. But I hold myself to the same standard as everyone else–if I don’t have enough confidence in a product to wear one, I wouldn’t tell anyone else to, either. And vice versa.

[Winding_Down]

^^^ my confidence level for helmets is MUCH higher. There’s real empirical data. But I did wear a helmet back in the old days, every time I rode.

I question the air vest. Absolutely. I’m not a total doofus. I am hedging my bets and hoping that the p of harm is outweighed by the p of saving me. You may be right. Maybe it could cause harm. But if p of s outweighs p of h, I will wear it.

[Countrywood]

Since the hit air vest expands outward and not inward, why is fear of the inward expansion a reason for not having an air vest? don’t buy the inward one (point two). I believe the point two inflates a fraction of a second faster which is why some choose it. No doubt it works well, just would not be my choice.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=deltawave;7072616]
No, I’m not worried about being uncomfortable. I’m worried about bone fragments being driven into my spinal cord by the force of the thing inflating inward. [/QUOTE]

I am inclined to think that inflating inward/outward is a red herring. A blood pressure cuff is just as tight whether it inflates inward or outward. It is “getting tight very quickly” that could drive bone fragments into bad places, regardless of in/out ward.

[Winding_Down]

and it is inflated prior to the bone fragments forming, right?

Again, it is only as tight as you make it. The vest does not have to be on such that it is high pressure. The example of the gal who was screaming and vomiting from the vest? I am guessing that was due to a pinney being tied on really tight OR due to her having putting (adjusting) the vest on extraordinarily tight. It is NOT that tight when it deploys.