More talk about air- vests

I know, it was strange. I can’t remember the exact story, but it was discussed on CoTH how the doctor determined the vest saved her life but they were not going to allow any one else to watch the video…I will look for the post.

Yes, I remember that thread. I don’t mean to sound as if I’m simply defending doctors, but it wouldn’t even remotely be a physician’s place or responsibility to decide what to do with any video taken of a patient. That aspect of it makes no sense. However, I was critical at the time of any physician who would say unequivocally that this or that intervention had “saved someone’s life”. I still feel the same. However, it is human nature (and most doctors ARE human, contrary to popular belief) :wink: to speculate, to gush, to use hyperbole, and to say things that we think are reassuring and helpful without considering that these words might be misinterpreted. :slight_smile:

To me that whole statement was unfortunate, and understandably widely pounced on without being any sort of declarative or authoritative conclusion.

[QUOTE=Countrywood;7077267]
A vest deflating might allow a fracture or fragment to move or shift, but based on what I have seen of rider behavior after a fall (including my own), the people do their own shifting. Everyone’s instinct is to try to get up, or move a bit to see what hurts etc. Even if someone loses consciousness, the minute they come to, that is their instinct, to move try to get up, etc. Even if they can’t get up they shift this way and that. I have never seen anyone lie rock still after a fall (hopfeull never will as that would mean they were dead)[/QUOTE]

I am going to agree with this. I can tell you there is nothing worse than a head injured 20-something year old male that hits the ER. They thrash like an animal! No one smacks their head and wakes up cognoscente. There is a period of “cloudiness” for lack of a better word that can last seconds to days depending on the severity of the head injury. No one lays there quietly with a head injury. Fight/flight kicks in. We lay on a lot of people in the ER trying to prevent them from worsening their injuries.

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;7077476]

Also found this data, wonder why P2 never came back and shared it? I see things have now changed, where they have had several riders with serious injury wearing P2.

http://deljocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Development-Testing-of-air-vests-for-jockeys_Dr-Jessica-Evans_ICHSWJ-2010.pdf[/QUOTE]

So is this considered testing? It sounded like some sort of testing was done.

I know that “SwampYankee” became “Lady Eboshi”… Who was "Winding Down?

[QUOTE=skydy;7078054]
I know that “SwampYankee” became “Lady Eboshi”… Who was "Winding Down?[/QUOTE]

Hey there. I don’t recall what my screen name was but I’m an active 57 year old eventer running intermediate tomorrow with an air vest.

I seriously am not convinced the vests make a big difference. I’m just less convinced that the probability of harm outweighs the probability or benefit.

I have a background as a scientist, Ph.D., previously full professor at a major midwest university. I’ve been called a lot of things in the past, but gullible is not one of them. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Winding Down;7078170]
Hey there. I don’t recall what my screen name was but I’m an active 57 year old eventer running intermediate tomorrow with an air vest.

I seriously am not convinced the vests make a big difference. I’m just less convinced that the probability of harm outweighs the probability or benefit.

I have a background as a scientist, Ph.D., previously full professor at a major midwest university. I’ve been called a lot of things in the past, but gullible is not one of them. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Best of luck with your ride tomorrow.:slight_smile: If I was in your position I would forgo the air vest, but everyone does what they think best. :yes:

I missed the part where someone called you gullible.

You really don’t remember your previous screen name? :confused:

[QUOTE=skydy;7078182]
Best of luck with your ride tomorrow.:slight_smile: If I was in your position I would forgo the air vest, but everyone does what they think best. :yes:

I missed the part where someone called you gullible.

You really don’t remember your previous screen name? :confused:[/QUOTE]

I really can’t remember it! I think it was my actual name… But I’m not certain…

And I could very easily forget to attach the air vest… :eek:

[QUOTE=Winding Down;7078188]
And I could very easily forget to attach the air vest… :eek:[/QUOTE]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

IF I was eventing (which I am not) and IF I chose to wear an expensive, untested, air vest (which I would not) I would bet that I’d be most likely to forget to hook it up and I am not surprised that several UL riders have admitted that they did forget to hook up. Too much other stuff to think about, understandably.

If I had an intermediate course in front of me, I feel my mind would not be on the last minute lanyard attachment. :smiley:

Again good luck tomorrow!

Originally Posted by Jealoushe
Also found this data, wonder why P2 never came back and shared it? I see things have now changed, where they have had several riders with serious injury wearing P2.

http://deljocks.com/wp-content/uploa...CHSWJ-2010.pdf

One of those slides claims a riding injury for every 100 hours of riding!?! Um, no.

and OMG:

RESULTS

  • Total 95 falls
  • None of the riders surveyed who fell sustained any
    serious injury or required hospital admission

That powerpoint is a cautionary tale about how not to present data.

[QUOTE=CindyCRNA;7077901]
So is this considered testing? It sounded like some sort of testing was done.[/QUOTE]

Well, the link provided was to a somewhat shlocky slide show. There HAS been some testing done, but the data, apparently, exist in some sort of black box somewhere. Briefly, a representative of P2 used to post here. He/she promised, over and over, that those data were going to be made public “right away” and also promised to post the data when they were made public. Never happened.

So there appears to have been some testing done, somewhere, from which the company has drawn some conclusions and made some very sweeping statements about “improved spinal protection”, etc. But anyone who reads scientific literature for a living knows better than to take numbers like that at face value. We wanted to see the ACTUAL data to analyze it. Still hasn’t been made public. :frowning:

[QUOTE=Winding Down;7078170]
Hey there. I don’t recall what my screen name was but I’m an active 57 year old eventer running intermediate tomorrow with an air vest.

I seriously am not convinced the vests make a big difference. I’m just less convinced that the probability of harm outweighs the probability or benefit.

I have a background as a scientist, Ph.D., previously full professor at a major midwest university. I’ve been called a lot of things in the past, but gullible is not one of them. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

I don’t know anything about previous user names and I don’t really care who wears an air vest and who doesn’t (just don’t make me wear the danged thing), but you are a rock star! 57 and running Int, that is awesome. I’m 46 and I frequently wonder how much longer I’ll have the gonads to jump the solid stuff.

Have a great run. Kick some young whipper-snapper tush :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Countrywood;7077267]
A vest deflating might allow a fracture or fragment to move or shift, but based on what I have seen of rider behavior after a fall (including my own), the people do their own shifting. Everyone’s instinct is to try to get up, or move a bit to see what hurts etc. Even if someone loses consciousness, the minute they come to, that is their instinct, to move try to get up, etc. Even if they can’t get up they shift this way and that. I have never seen anyone lie rock still after a fall (hopfeull never will as that would mean they were dead)[/QUOTE]

There is actual empiric evidence on this subject when it comes to patients with spine injuries. A conscious, non-concussed person with a spine fracture can pretty much be counted upon not to move in a way that will increase their risk of spinal cord injury. We use this principle all the time in clinical practice. For example, we might have a patient with a C5 fracture without spinal cord injury. Based on the imaging, we may not be able to tell if the fracture is unstable and thus requires operative fixation. If the patient is conscious and not on meds which alter their sensorium, we might send them down for X-rays where we remove their collar and have them flex and extend their neck fully. This is safe only because pain from fracture instability will make the patient stop moving before they cause neurologic damage. So while some people might jump up from a fall, a conscious patient with an unstable spine fracture will not, across all of my experience. Also, unconscious people are not likely to jump around in my experience either :slight_smile:

So, the only scenarios where I worry about movement occurring in a patient with an unstable fracture are when the patient is concussed (have done this one myself) and thus not picking up the cues from their sensory system, or when others move a patient and inflict harm unknowingly. There is an interesting body of knowledge looking at patients with ore existing spinal pathology (ankylosing spondylitis, also other fixed deformities or prior fusions) who have a new traumatic fracture, are neurologically normal, and then get strapped to a back board and become paraplegic. I’ve seen about 15 of those in my career.

Bottom line - if you are thinking clearly and moving of your own volition, your body almost always protects you from making a spinal injury worse.

[QUOTE=deltawave;7077759]
Yes, I remember that thread. I don’t mean to sound as if I’m simply defending doctors, but it wouldn’t even remotely be a physician’s place or responsibility to decide what to do with any video taken of a patient. That aspect of it makes no sense. However, I was critical at the time of any physician who would say unequivocally that this or that intervention had “saved someone’s life”. I still feel the same. However, it is human nature (and most doctors ARE human, contrary to popular belief) :wink: to speculate, to gush, to use hyperbole, and to say things that we think are reassuring and helpful without considering that these words might be misinterpreted. :slight_smile:

To me that whole statement was unfortunate, and understandably widely pounced on without being any sort of declarative or authoritative conclusion.[/QUOTE]

Knowing the parties involved, I think the statement was one of those unfortunate “oh yes, I think that must have really helped!” kind of throwaway statements we make to patients with serious problems all the time. The situation is being misrepresented- don’t think the surgeon cares about the video. Do think the surgeon was unpleasantly surprised to be cited as an advocate for a safety product he had never examined (and wasn’t hired to promote as an expert!) Hence the plug was pulled on any further public discussion of the vest/video/medical conversations.

All I can say beyond that is that it someone took something I said in a family consultation and turned it into a expert endorsement of a safety product without my permission I would be livid.

[QUOTE=poltroon;7078246]
One of those slides claims a riding injury for every 100 hours of riding!?! Um, no.

and OMG:

That powerpoint is a cautionary tale about how not to present data.[/QUOTE]

It looked pretty cheesy.

^^ no kidding.

Tipperary is coming out with a new (regular) vest in the fall…perhaps that is a better solution?

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7077542]
I don’t have an air vest. Doesn’t bother me one bit if someone does have one. These are personal choices…and there is NOT a right or wrong answer.

I don’t have one for simple reasons…I don’t wear my regular vest riding daily and doubt I would wear an air vest at any time other than a competition. Since I’m far more likely to be hurt at home and schooling…I see it as a waste of money. I do wear a helmet every ride.

I do have horses who I’m 100% sure would react negatively to a vest deploying. Hell…they react to other people’s air vest deploying. I had one ridden by a pro who did bolt off with his rider when his vest deployed.

I would 100% be a person who dismounted and deployed their vest…and given my own horses…would very likely get hurt in that situation. And wearing an airvest is not so important to ME personally that I’m going to spend the time and money to desensitize my own horses.

So for me personally…there is not a huge benefit in the air vests. I don’t mind taking advil for a few days if I pop off. So it really just became a cost benefit issue for me.

And while there are all risks in horse sports…I minimize mine through proper training and having good horses. My most likely significant injury is going to come driving to and from the barn in my car or truck…and I’ll accept the other risks.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for saying this Born Free. It’s exactly how I feel.

[QUOTE=blackwly;7078762]
There is actual empiric evidence on this subject when it comes to patients with spine injuries. A conscious, non-concussed person with a spine fracture can pretty much be counted upon not to move in a way that will increase their risk of spinal cord injury. We use this principle all the time in clinical practice. For example, we might have a patient with a C5 fracture without spinal cord injury. Based on the imaging, we may not be able to tell if the fracture is unstable and thus requires operative fixation. If the patient is conscious and not on meds which alter their sensorium, we might send them down for X-rays where we remove their collar and have them flex and extend their neck fully. This is safe only because pain from fracture instability will make the patient stop moving before they cause neurologic damage. So while some people might jump up from a fall, a conscious patient with an unstable spine fracture will not, across all of my experience. Also, unconscious people are not likely to jump around in my experience either :slight_smile:

So, the only scenarios where I worry about movement occurring in a patient with an unstable fracture are when the patient is concussed (have done this one myself) and thus not picking up the cues from their sensory system, or when others move a patient and inflict harm unknowingly. There is an interesting body of knowledge looking at patients with ore existing spinal pathology (ankylosing spondylitis, also other fixed deformities or prior fusions) who have a new traumatic fracture, are neurologically normal, and then get strapped to a back board and become paraplegic. I’ve seen about 15 of those in my career.

Bottom line - if you are thinking clearly and moving of your own volition, your body almost always protects you from making a spinal injury worse.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Blackwly. This is too cool. The way that we have evolved to have pain act to protect us is amazing.

This discussion is reminding me of a accident I had several years ago - I now wear my regular vest whenever jumping but at the time did not when jumping in the ring; horse caught a rail between his front legs and flipped over, sending me flying.
I landed hard, on my belly, and slid to a stop.
My many years of riding and teaching had ingrained in me NEVER to move right after a fall, just in case. So I almost couldn’t process the shouts of “move! Roll towards me!” I was hearing. Both my coach and my lesson partner were lifelong horsewomen who have jumped, and probably crashed, more than I ever will.
I literally lay there thinking “that’s wrong! You’re not supposed to move.”

What I didn’t realize, being face down in the dirt, was that my horse was doing the world’s slowest somersault and was now falling, upside down, towards me. :eek:

Of course all this happened in a second or two and I was still lying prone wondering if they had taken leave of their senses when my horse came down, on his back, right next to me.

We were all fine (including my saddle, fancy that!), but it was an interesting window into the conflict between what you think you know and instructions being issued to you…

Sorry, OT…